Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Speaker: Hello and welcome, Andy.

I'm very excited to have
you here with me today.

Speaker 2: Well, thank
you for inviting me.

I'm excited to have a little chat

Speaker: with you.

Awesome.

Awesome.

So before we dive into that, let's,
let's people know, let people know

where in this lovely world you're based.

And so what's your business with dogs?

Speaker 2: Well, I'm very lucky
because I live, um, on a beach,

not literally on a beach.

We live next to the beach, um, with
my wonderful husband and we've got

three dogs down in Devon in UK.

So it's a really beautiful place to
live and, um, yeah, we have a few too

many tourists probably in the summer.

I shouldn't really whinge about
that, but you know, but we're happy

to share this wonderful place.

So that's great.

And we've got Dartmoor nearby.

So it's a really wonderful
place, Anke, actually.

So yeah, we're very lucky to be here.

And I've got private practice
down here working with dogs.

Um, so, uh, I specialize
in working with dogs.

What we might colloquially refer
to as reactivity and aggression.

About half of my workload are
dogs that we might class as

being dangerous, potentially.

Um, and they're my favorites to work
with because, as we'll touch on a

little bit today, they are potentially
dangerous because they haven't been heard.

Their stories haven't been heard.

They don't feel safe.

Um, and actually in my 15 years of
working with these type of dogs, I've

not met a dog yet that wasn't in pain.

Uh, physical pain, of course, but
also emotional or social pain.

So, um, yeah, I love working with
these dogs and I, and I spend a lot

of time with my educational stuff,
really, trying to push back against

this fallacy that somehow these dogs
can only be helped by harsh means.

And I can say to you now, no dog.

is safer to be around by
being made to feel less safe.

It's just, that's it.

But, but that's, um, we can touch
on some of those little points in a

minute, but that's kind of what I do.

So I'm, I'm the behavioural
consultant for a product called

Pet Remedy here in the UK.

I do a lot of work with Pet Remedy.

Um, I'm an expert advisor with
Canine Arthritis Management.

I love everything Howard does at
CAM, um, really promoting All this

wonderful information to caregivers and
professionals about the role of chronic

pain in a lot of behavior, actually.

Um, and, uh, yeah, and I run
my dog centered care platform,

which is, um, uh, Facebook group.

And I get a chance to speak to wonderful
people, um, and, uh, people who are

leading the way in thinking about moving
away from just a training, compliance

based approach to working with dogs.

Because There's a beautiful richness
to their emotional lives that we need

to be better at bearing witness to
because that's how we really truly

have that wonderful relationship and a
lot of behavioral challenges actually

are a dog trying to communicate
their safety and relief needs.

Speaker: I love that.

I love that.

Oh boy, Devin, like we'll have
chat about that afterwards.

I love Devin.

Um, so I'm curious, how did you
get started with dog training?

Like that wasn't your first career.

So what made you make
this, make the switch?

Speaker 2: Yeah, no.

So, um, I've got a human
psychology background and,

um, this is why I'm really.

The one thing that goes straight through
everything really is a real interesting

in a real interest in the individual
lived emotional experience, whether it's

the human, whether it's the dog, whether
it's the cat, whether it's the horse.

Um, and, uh, you know, the emotional
experience is a powerful lens to look at

the world because one is we all have one.

You have one, I have one, the dog has one.

And secondly, they're all
unique to us as individuals.

So there's a lot that we share, I
know, but, but, um, uh, but we are all

a unique combination of our genetics,
our early experiences, especially

our secure, insecure attachments, our
trauma, you know, all these things.

So that's why we can all be in the same
space, experiencing the same thing,

but be affected by it very differently.

So actually, uh, and our brain wants
to project a safe world view of the

world based on our own experience.

And that's why we judge so easily.

We love to judge, right?

Um, judging often with the
flimsiest of information.

And there's two things about us humans.

One is we love to judge, uh, and
secondly, we hate to be judged.

And why?

Because we're our own behavior.

Guess what?

We know it's complicated.

So that's the thing.

Same for adults.

So, um, then, so I was, I was working in,
in the kind of human side of things and

then, and then I had my own breakdown.

That was, that was the big thing for me.

And, um, I, I share some of this
and I, I, I share this quite

freely, uh, if it's relevant.

Um, but I, I had a, I had a, I had
trauma when I was, when I was a child,

sexualized trauma when I was a child.

Uh, with non family members, I like
to mention that, but anyway, uh, and

that's a really important point for
me, you know, because the thing about

trauma, when I experienced what I
experienced, nothing around me changed.

My parents were the same, my friends
were the same, my school was the same.

What changed was my perception
of everything, uh, and

the deepness of unsafety.

And guess what?

That affected my behaviour.

And this is why I'm so passionate, I
think, now with dogs, I'll come on to how

I go on to dogs in a bit, about thinking
about behavior differently, moving away

from a very heavy training operant y
model to just try and change behavior.

So if you change behavior,
everything's okay, because it isn't.

So in my case, when I was at school then,
um, and my behavior started to get Okay.

progressively, uh, worse based
upon the metric of the school, um,

they ramped up their punishment
until eventually I got the cane.

So anybody under, I don't know, 30 years
old, yes, we used to hit kids with sticks.

Uh, and, um, so guess what?

My behavior did change because
I didn't want to get the cane.

So job done.

Tick.

Because guess what?

Punishment does work.

If you're just looking at
stopping behavior, it can work.

Tick.

My parents.

took a different approach because, um,
I was quite spoiled as a kid, I have

to say, uh, but I was spoiled because,
um, my parents worked very hard, and

the problem with them working very
hard is that they weren't around much.

So, uh, when my behavior started
to change, they recognized maybe

they should be home more, so they
said, like, you know, we'll do more

as a family, contingent on, So we
love contingencies as dog trainers.

Contingent on you behaving better,
because they wanted me to behave better

because I was not being very nice.

So I guess what I did behave,
Anke, let's see the point again,

tick, reinforcement, tick.

So the consequence model worked, whether
it was punishment or reinforcement,

and my behavior did change.

But my intrinsic safety needs didn't.

I just behaved.

And the real consequence for me was
my breakdown some 15, 20 years later.

So this is real, the reality of intrinsic
need versus extrinsic motivation.

How many dogs who are trying to
communicate need The need for safety, the

need for connection, the need for relief.

Relief is the most important word in
the psychology of behavior for me.

It's why we have safety because when
you feel that kind of negative thing,

that physical pain, that emotional
pain, that social pain, you seek relief.

Um, and if you don't find
relief, you get no relief, which

is a horrible thing to feel.

And we've all been in situations
where we feel you have to

kind of put up with stuff.

So how many dogs then, because we've
judged them, as we like to judge,

uh, their behavior as being the
problem, are they either shut down

through punishment or even with
reinforcement, because it's powerful?

We end up getting a different behavior
that we find more appropriate, but the

dog still doesn't feel safe, or the
dog still doesn't get the connection

they need, or the dog still doesn't
get the relief they were seeking.

So everything's connected.

Um, when I had my breakdown,
um, I ended up moving home.

My father had Sadly, uh, was in
the last stages of his, of his

illness and, and he passed away.

And, and I, and I was with
my mother, who I adored.

I'm a real mom's boy, , and
I adored, I adored her.

And, um, she was getting on a bit herself.

So I, I thought, yeah, I'm gonna
stay home and look after mom and

maybe I need to think about change.

And one of the people that
was involved in my therapy.

His brother, um, is somebody called John
Roberts, who people might have heard of

if they're in the world anyway, um, and he
was a real pioneer of positive enrichment

and reinforcement within zoos and that
kind of thing with the wild animal.

So I got a chance to spend time with
him and I had 18 months with him

actually, which is really amazing.

And, um, and I thought this is quite cool.

And then mom might, it was my late mother,
she's not with us now, who suggested

maybe, maybe thinking about doing dogs.

So I went down the normal
dog training route.

How to train a dog route and, um,
uh, but over time, these thoughts

about behavior started to come back.

That's the key.

And at the time, nobody was
around in my circles was really

allowing that conversation.

And it was, Meeting the wonderful Sarah
Fisher, who's now become a really dear

friend of mine, thankfully, because I love
her, uh, who almost gave me permission

to keep thinking along these lines
about, we've done very well at moving

the conversation on from punishment
to reinforcement, but that's very much

about how to do the task of getting
a dog to do something in a nicer way.

I'm really interested now, Anke, about
moving that conversation forwards

and thinking, right, That's fine.

We can, we know how we can change
behavior, but what's the story

of that dog in front of us?

Speaker: Oh, I can't even
tell you how much I love this.

It just makes like the whole journey
makes so much sense and the question that

puts the that it puts in the room now.

It almost is like, well, both the
harsh approach and the reinforcement

still only work on that surface level.

And, you know, you could see like,
well, if there is something underneath

and you know how I don't know, with
humans, you always say, well, okay, you

know, if emotional stress doesn't have
an outlet, it'll find its outlet, you

know, in illness and it'll come out.

It's almost like you kind of
push something down, it'll

come out somewhere, right?

So what I'm curious about now, if
we're looking at say, okay, let's just

attack the issue, pun intended, attack,
attack the issue at its, at its root.

Right, so if we say, well,
if a dog can feel safe.

then chances are the behaviors
we don't want kind of dissolve

by themselves, you know, which
makes all the sense in the world.

So how, like, what is something that
somebody would have to take into account?

Or how would you, how do you go
about creating safety for a dog?

Like, how do you help a dog feel safe?

I mean, you know, it's
even like, I don't know.

And how is it, is it
different from people?

And if so, how?

Speaker 2: I think on many fundamental
levels it isn't, because the

first thing is we have to navigate
our own judgments and biases.

As the one who is the one seeking
to support, and we need to listen.

We need to be available.

We need to be truly available to
the emotional truth of another.

And that isn't always easy.

And because as I say of our own,
our own belief systems, our own

judgments and that kind of thing,
I've got what I call my CAKE acronym.

Which helps us with that a little
bit, because it happens to spell

cake, because we all love cake, right.

So cake, compassion, awareness,
knowledge and empathy.

These are the foundations of
helping us be more available to

the truth of another, whether it's
the dog, whether it's the human.

So compassion is first thing, and
compassion is important because that

helps us to navigate our own biases.

So, um, I might have an intake form from
a client and I might see that they've used

a shot collar, I might see that they pin
their dogs down, I might see that they

do whatever, all these kind of things,
and my judgy brain will judge that.

And one thing about judgment, we
can't not judge, but we can learn to

change our relationship with judgment.

We can change our relationship with
our feelings, we can change our

relationship with our trauma, we can
change our relationship with everything.

Um, it's not about not feeling stuff.

So we can, uh, judge, Our brain
will do it, but we can change our

relationship with that judgment,
so it doesn't drive our response.

What will drive my response is compassion,
because compassion is not about

condoning, agreeing with, or whatever.

It's about turning up anyway,
about turning up anyway.

So compassion is an important one.

And then awareness.

I need to be as aware as I can be.

of that lived experience, whether
it's the client or the dog, and

allowing them to tell their story.

I see behavior, especially dogs,
like them painting a picture.

I want them to paint that picture for me.

I don't want to keep grabbing the brush
off them thinking I can paint it better.

Same with the client.

I want them to tell their story in their
words, on their terms, because that's how

you help to create safety, social safety.

And then knowledge.

I have knowledge, of course I
do, but that's not the point.

The point at this point is I want
to seek knowledge, true knowledge

from that dog or the client.

So it's, it's universal, this stuff.

And that allows you to have more empathy
and empathy is, is really the thing.

I think I kind of feel that I can kind of,
you know, empathy for me is, you know, Um,

being available to the emotional truth of
another and feeling it like it's your own.

But, this is important for any
professionals listening, recognizing

that we're not responsible for it.

Very important, that's
where boundaries connect.

So when I'm working with a dog
then, the first thing we're going

to do is move away from this notion
of arbitrarily judging behavior.

It's just behavior.

I invite anybody listening now to
think about how often you thought

about your behavior today, and
the answer is you didn't much.

You just behaved.

And you will behave differently
based upon your mood state, your

physical state, your emotional state.

Um, you will behave differently
based on your social circumstances,

the social environment.

We just, we know this about ourselves,
but we struggle to see it in others.

And actually, your behavior is, because
of our own conditioning, is likely to

be less authentic than we think it would
be for ourselves, because we feel under

a bit of social pressure to behave.

We feel under pressure to be a bit of a
people pleaser, or whatever it is we got.

Sorry to sort of mention that.

But anyway, so coming to those then, um,
so Dr Jess, I want, it all comes down

to really good observations with dogs.

I need them to tell their story for
me, uh, and I need to try and learn it.

And I need to put away my own
biases and think about these things.

And almost always, when we think
about the big behaviors, it's about

a dog struggling to find relief.

So that's a nervous system that's
struggling to regulate well.

Two really good, Little analogies here.

One is about processing, because
that's where the first bit is about

how the brain can effectively and
efficiently process what goes on.

So if you imagine the dog's brain has lots
of little doors in it, we, this is, the

beautiful thing is this applies to us too.

So, but, um, but anyway,
talking about doggy.

So your doggy at home then, your
dog's got a lot of little doors in it.

in their brain, and we need as many
of those doors to stay open for

that dog to have a chance of being
able to process what's going on

around them and make sense of it.

There's something called sensory
integration, so it's how that brain

takes on information through the
sensory system and integrates it well.

Pain, trauma, and stress,
excitement and frustration, or

stress if you think about it.

They're all big door closers.

And, uh, same for us.

So, um, also, if your dog is under
18 months old, there's a part of the

brain that helps modulate, moderate
our behavior, really, and kind

of, you know, manage our emotions.

And humans starts in our teens and
it's fully formed in our late 20s.

In dogs, it doesn't start till 18 months.

So some of those doors
aren't even open yet.

Nothing closes doors like trauma.

So if you've got an overseas rescue or
a dog that's had a lot of trouble, you

can't force those doors open the brain.

And that nervous system has to
believe it's okay to open them.

You can't teach safety because the,
as the wonderful Rachel Leather

says, who's a trauma expert,
because you have to feel it.

I could teach you to be physically safe.

And as in, don't put your fingers in the
plug socket, but I can't teach you to be

emotionally safe because you have to feel.

So the doors to the brain
lunge is a good one.

Now guess what?

Doors that are likely to
start closing first when the

animal is not feeling great.

are likely to be the doors you put
the training behind, because a lot of

the training has little or no value
to the dog other than what we want.

The doors that are likely to stay
open are the survival doors, right?

Because that's the ones that have
more innate value to the dog.

So, you teach your dog some
stuff, they do it, great.

You ask the dog to do it another
time and they're not doing it, now

we've got a point of reference here,
and we want to judge them, right?

So we're The dog must do it because
they've got to be obedient, so

now they're being disobedient,
willful, stubborn, whatever.

No, just don't have enough
doors open, so they can't right

now, and it's hard for them.

Uh, the number of times I see down
on the beach people trying to control

their dogs when they get out of the car.

The dogs?

Just really excited and they
want to go to the beach.

They're going, sit, no sit, sit.

The dog's like, can't, that
door's not open right now.

And in fact, we're putting
more pressure on the dog.

So we're closing even more doors now.

The doors are slamming shut.

The second analogy is the nervous
system, which connects in, which

is the good old bucket analogy.

We love a bucket.

Yeah.

Uh, the bucket line.

Um, so the bucket system.

Yeah.

And then, and the water in the bucket.

Is how much the nervous
system is engaging.

So in the bucket, elevation
out the bucket, decompression.

And if you want to get technical kind
of in the bucket, sympathetic system

out the bucket, parasympathetic system.

So the more that's in the bucket, the
less doors we have open, less chance of

efficient sensor integratory process,
making good choices or whatever else, more

chance of reflexive automatic behavior.

So even for us.

When our bucket's too full, we
are more likely, in the heat of

the moment, to say and do things.

That later, when we decompress
and we have more doors open again,

we're likely to apologise also.

No different for the dog.

So a lot of these big behaviours
that we struggle with, A lot of the

dogs I work with, the first thing
we notice is that dog's bucket's

fuller than it needs to be anyway.

One last thing, especially if you've
got a reactive dog in a vertical house,

being sociable, being able to socially
process well, takes a lot of juice.

So if I want to invite your listeners
to think, if you're not feeling very

well, if you're stressed, if you're
tired, if you're any of those things,

And you're in town and you see a
friend, you're more likely to try

and avoid them because you don't have
the bandwidth to do the social stuff.

If you're not feeling great and you
get dragged to the party by your

other half, well, you're just going
to be a miserable gitball, aren't you?

Because you're not, you can't be sociable.

So a lot of these dogs I work with down
here who on the surface seem to have a

problem, for example, with other dogs.

dysregulation they're experiencing
is the problem for them.

And when we address that,
now they have more bandwidth.

And they can process things differently.

Do you see?

So it's just so universal, this stuff.

Um, and actually, it's a
lot easier in some ways.

Because I find working with my clients,
they don't want to become a dog trainer.

They don't want to spend
an hour a day doing stuff.

And actually, this is the move
from task to care that I'm so

passionate about communicating.

A task orientated approach is
the normal transactional stuff.

So the task is, Getting the dog
to learn to sit, getting the dog

to come back, getting the dog to
stop barking, whatever the task is.

The trouble with a task orientated
approach, and if you have a task

approach, it doesn't mean you don't
care, but if your primary focus is to

get the task done, you end up caring less
about the other, more about the task.

The trouble with a task orientated
approach is, If the task can't be

done, then somebody's to blame.

Dog's not good enough.

Client's not good enough.

Caregiver's not good enough.

And sadly, even for the dog trainer
who is stuck in task themselves, they

feel now they're not good enough.

A care orientated approach is
just that it's a subtle difference

and it's a big one, which is
learning from the other first.

It's a relational thing.

So, um, even my own dog, Molly,
she came to us at 16 weeks.

She'd already had two homes, very fizzy.

We learnt from her first.

So my mantra, if you like,
is learn, support, teach.

Learn from the dog first,
support what you've learnt.

And if you're going to teach anything,
try and teach things that you've,

based from what you've learnt,
are likely to be intrinsically

valuable for that dog, regarding
their safety and regulatory needs.

After that, you can train what you like.

That's a care approach.

A task approach is the other way around.

I'm the human, you're going to learn
from me, and I need you to do it.

And I think the general public,
especially, have been convinced

that the most important things
are well trained, obedient dog.

And we've already got a problem then
regarding that relational structure.

Sorry, I went off on one then.

Oh,

Speaker: no, I love that.

I love that.

It's because, I mean, it just
kind of makes so much sense.

So in terms of creating

a relationship, creating a situation
where a dog can start to think,

well, maybe I am safe here.

I mean, what are some things
somebody can do or be?

Or like, how would one, you know,
if I have a dog and I had a dog,

you know, he got bitten when he
was 11 months old and he was dead.

And he was never quite the same
when there was, you know, other

male dogs in confined spaces.

So you could really tell
it was a trauma response.

And you know my initial reaction
was like, well that didn't help.

But um, you know for him to, I
mean he did get a lot better as

we moved away to quieter spaces.

So you know and I saw that with the
other dog who was like a real sort

He pulled a lot on the lead until we
moved away and everything settled.

Everything was calmer and both of
them were like, are these the same

dogs that we brought from Granada?

So, but not everybody
can go move to the beach.

Speaker 2: No, and I think we have to,
everything's a bit of a compromise.

I love what you said there, especially
about pulling, because a lot of

the dogs that come to me, they
pull a lot, and they pull a lot

because their bucket's too full.

Simple as that.

And it's, um, because if you don't address
the fact that, so when that nervous system

elevates, they're likely to go quicker.

And, and if that's because they've got
generalized anxiety or they're triggered

by the traffic or triggered by the
social environment, unless you address

some of that stuff, doing the stuff you
do back in the training hall, I guess

what, when in the village hall, the dog
walks lovely, when you step outside,

you're being dragged up the road.

And that's because that nervous
system is in a different state.

Everything is always
about slowing things down.

Removing our own judgments around behavior
and recognizing, okay, that behavior,

whilst I recognize it's irritating
me, or it's affecting me, whatever,

that that's actually a demonstration
that my dog's struggling somehow.

Always get a vet check, always look
for pain, physical pain, there's so

many studies on this now, is often
a contributing factor, especially

the neuropathic stuff, obviously the
acute kind of, um, orthopedic style

thing, uh, you know, like broken
bones or it sticking out, whatever,

then that's easier to spot sometimes.

But some of the neuropathic stuff isn't.

I mean, uh, chronic pain is
misunderstood even in humans.

And then we have to start thinking about
the context and situations where the

dog's likely to be experiencing that.

And, um, start off with something that I
like to call management and adaptation.

People used to call that control
and management, but I don't

like the term control very much.

So management, how do
I manage the situation?

How do I manage my dog's life
for now to try and remove

some of these extra stresses?

Maybe.

That isn't the best environment to lead,
to take them in, or to do things with,

um, the wonderful Nikki French wrote a
book called Stop Walking Your Dog, which

is quite, it's to get people's attention,
but it's always giving people permission

not to for a bit, if that will help.

And then the adaptation is about
how do we adapt the environment, but

also how do we adapt, how do we make
adaptations to our own expectations.

For now, it's not forever, it's
just recognizing, and so if, if we

avoid situations, it's not a cop
out, it's a sign of a great carer.

You know, um, if my husband
was, what, somebody who

struggled socially, he doesn't.

Uh, but if he did, um, and, um,
I, I wouldn't go down the pub

with him on a Saturday afternoon,
because it's too much for him.

We'd go when it was quieter, because
I don't want to see him get upset.

So, it's just how we approach
these things, then, There are

three really important words
that are foundated in safety.

Processing, engagement, and exit.

Processing, uh, what do we need
to process in order to feel safe?

What information would be helpful now?

And, what might be stopping us from
having that ability to process?

Remember, if the bucket's too
full, we can't process very well.

We haven't got enough doors
open, we can't process very well.

Processing, very important.

And then engagement.

The brain wants to feel it has choice.

Process.

And agency over how it engages
with the world around it.

Socially, emotionally,
physically, mentally, however

you want to think about things.

In the relation to reactive, innovative,
reactive dogs, uh, dogs, um, then

obviously that's where thinking socially.

And if we do engage, we want
to feel we can have an exit.

Again, emotionally, mentally,
physically, whatever.

Or, if we don't want to engage,
we feel we can have an exit.

Trauma is very foundated in lack of choice
and agency over engagement and exit.

You found yourself in a situation you
couldn't cope with, like you were saying

about your doggy, and you couldn't exit.

That is traumatic.

Whether or not it becomes
traumatizing very much depends upon

the individual's resilience and
robustness and past experiences.

So, um, a lot of the time then we
have to think about how, not just

cognitively, But also that nervous system
experience of the world around them.

We talk about learned behavior
a lot, so somehow that is always

done in a cognitive space.

The nervous system is listening in all the
time too, and it learns a lot of stuff.

And actually, when we think
about safety, Anke, it's not

the brain we have to convince.

Obviously, the nervous
system is part of the brain.

I'm going to disconnect a little bit.

This is the whole
polyvagal stuff, of course.

Polyvagal theory.

But, um, uh, the nervous
system has to believe it too.

Speaker: I think that's
the big thing, isn't it?

Like, you know, logically, you
might kind of know, well, yeah,

this is fine, but then in your
gut, you're not feeling it, right?

So there's a whole different

Speaker 2: I just want to touch
on that, because that's brilliant.

I love this, because when we think about
safety When we think about safety in

another, if I'm thinking about you and
your safety, we have a physical bias,

because it's what I can evidence base,
you look safe, so therefore you're safe.

But our own brain is just as if
not more focused on emotional

And that's why you can be safe
physically and not feel it.

That's the problem.

And I said earlier about the doors
that are likely to start closing

first for the dogs are the ones
who put the training behind.

For us humans, the doors are
likely to start closing first.

is our more human cognitive parts of
the brain, that prefrontal cortex.

The doors that are likely to stay open
for us are again our survival stuff.

So this is why, you know, when people
say, oh, you know, you're okay, get over

it, or you know, just think positive
thoughts, it's like, okay, I'll try that.

But if the nervous system doesn't
believe it, It internalizes quite

a lot of conflict, actually.

Uh, and, uh, so it's interesting,
and it's the same for the doggy.

And what's also interesting, if
anybody might think, oh, well, you

know, they're dogs, and why is he
talking a lot of human y stuff?

I can tell you now, when I did
my human psychology degree, A

long time ago, 30 years ago.

Um, most of the stuff we learned
about attachment theory, everything's

about attachment for a social species.

Seeking secure attachment is everything.

Attachment theory, social
pain, social processing.

We learned from studies
on monkeys and dogs.

And the trouble is our human ego back
then didn't allow us to think about

the animals, just what does it tell
us about us and we're somehow special.

Behavioral science is now kind of saying
to us, maybe we're not that special.

Maybe on a very deep, visceral level.

There's a lot that unites us because we're
social mammals and, uh, the need for,

to feel hard when you're communicating
need, the need to feel safe physically,

emotionally, socially, and the need
to find relief, especially away from

physical, emotional and social pain.

Speaker: That's such a, like, it kind
of like, oh, this makes so much sense.

And I would imagine, like, if you work
with a dog and their person, I bet

my last dollar that there's impact
on the dog and impact on the person.

Speaker 2: Oh, always.

I think, um, for the majority of my
clients, When they start to connect to

their dog in a more relational way, they
see beyond the judgments of the behavior.

They recognize that there is an animal
generally trying to communicate, and that

behavior, that's the only way a dog can
communicate is through their behavior,

and we allow them to paint their picture
more fully, and we understand their relief

and safety needs, and we support them.

They can't help but mirror their own, and
they're like, you know what, I can see

where the damage was done myself with my
own insecure attachments, where my, where

I was shut down, where I haven't felt
safe when I was in that relationship.

And it's really all these kinds
of things that come out and

you can't not, you can't not.

There are some clients, of course,
who, because of their own, we

have the three A's, awareness,
acknowledgement, acceptance.

That's what, that's the journey
we all have to go through.

So my role is to support the
awareness of my, of the, of the

client, support the awareness of the
client, of their dog's experience.

And then, so for example, they might start
off by thinking, oh yeah, well my dog's

being naughty, disobedient, my dog's being
dominant, of course, that's a good, so

I'm helping to support their awareness.

So then, uh, Then they might become
aware, well maybe my dog isn't those

things, maybe my dog's stressed
or uncomfortable or not coping.

Then I need to support
their acknowledgement of

that, and that can be hard.

That can be hard acknowledgement,
especially if they've been brought up, for

example, in a very um, very controlling
environment as a child, very strict,

there has to be a consequence, you
know, you can feel what you like Anke,

but don't show it, that kind of stuff.

That can be hard for people to
navigate, so some people can't.

The big one for acknowledgement is guilt.

Speaker: I was just thinking it's
like then, then your mind goes, Oh

my God, I messed up my dog, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can just kind of
touch on that before we finish actually

Gil, because I think it's a really
important, remember I said earlier,

everything is okay to feel, it's how
we change our relationship with them.

So with guilt.

If we allow it, it will, it will
keep us chained to the past.

So if that client thinks, Oh God,
I put that collar on my dog now

and I feel really bad about it.

If they stay thinking in the past,
they will stay chained to the past

and guilt can eat away at you.

Whereas if we, instead of
saying to clients or anybody

saying, well, don't feel guilty.

I don't say that.

I say, feel it.

Because, but we can change
your relationship with it.

Because, uh, what that tells us is
that deep visceral feeling tells

us we've learned something really
important and we can allow that to

drive our responses moving forwards.

It's not about the past anymore.

And that's the power of it.

It tells us, you know,
I feel this very deeply.

And so, so, and I'm going to use
that feeling to now make sure that.

It's that whole kind of
know better, do better.

It drives us forward.

So now we break the chain
to the past, actually.

So those feelings, they're
uncomfortable for a reason, Anke.

Because we've learned something
pretty important, I think.

And, and

Speaker: that's, that's a beautiful way to
look at it, because then you acknowledge

it, and you don't have to sort of shove
it down, but it's also like not gonna

run the show now, and it is so true,
like if you can feel guilty, profoundly

guilty, and kind of embarrassed about
some things, because you've really,

you know, it's kind of like almost like
your notification bell that you've had

a massive insight, and really, because
at the end of the day, we always do What

makes sense to us, given what we know,
given how we understand the world, is

we always do what makes sense to us.

You know, and I think understanding
and giving ourselves like that, like

slack for that, like whatever we did,
like, that's what made sense given

how we saw the world at the time.

So I think the main thing is to,
well, let's just not take it as

a given and be open to for new
insight to, to, to change things.

Yeah.

That makes all the difference.

Speaker 2: If we get through the
acknowledgement and get to acceptance,

where the person think actually
I accept my dog as they are now.

And I accept the limitations now.

It doesn't mean that's
forever, but I accept this.

We also know from, um, studies and
surveys done with humans and with

children with various behavioral needs,
that when they get to acceptance, it

unlocks the advocacy part of the brain.

And that's a beautiful thing because
a lot of the time people feel very

vulnerable with their dogs because
of the fear of judgment of others,

you know, if your dog's barking.

The beautiful thing about getting to
advocacy is it's the best shield to that

judgment because then you're like, you
know what, I don't care what you think.

I will hold space for my dog.

I know what my dog needs and that's
my primary role as a caregiver,

whether it's the dog or the child.

So it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker: I love that.

I love that.

Thank you so much.

There's so much food for thought here.

This is just a beautiful space to.

hang out in, actually.

So where can people go and get
more of you, find out, get in

touch, find out about what you do?

Speaker 2: Well, it's a big thing, you
know, because when you do have a mindset

shift, we've touched on it a little bit
today, it unlocks a lot of stuff, right?

Because it's like, oh, because
we're so conditioned into seeing

behavior in a certain way, not just
in dogs, but in each other, actually.

Um, so, uh, we need safe
spaces to unpack this.

And that's what I've tried to do with
my dog center care Facebook group.

I do Facebook lives in there.

Um, and Um, I've had about 90 so far,
and these are with leading experts

on trauma, pain, learning experience,
neurobiology, um, attachment, all

the things we've discussed today.

These are leading experts in their field,
um, and all those conversations are on

the Dog Centre Care YouTube channel.

It's all free.

Um, I do some stuff to camera myself
occasionally, uh, if I, if I feel

I want to have a bit of a break.

But it's mainly my guests and I really
value them because it takes many voices.

This is the point.

And I think we have to have
all these threads together.

Uh, so yeah, so those are two things.

Also, um, my website for this
kind of stuff is, um, www.

dogcc.

org.

And that's where you can find, if you're
interested in hearing more of me, uh,

when I've been on podcasts or articles
I've written or, or things like that.

So that's all in one place.

But yeah, I think it's just.

I just love it.

I love, I love the gift
of compassion and empathy.

We have to sadly tap into it sometimes
because it doesn't come easily with the

kind of way that we are living our lives
sometimes because of all these things.

But I think when we can have those
moments and those safe spaces to

tap into it, and we become more
available to the truth of others.

It allows us to learn our own truth more.

And that's a hugely beautiful and valuable

Speaker: thing,

Speaker 2: I think.

Speaker: Love that.

That's such a beautiful place to land.

Thank you so much for sharing your
wisdom and such, such a breadth.

But I think there's so much depth to
it that it's just like, ooh, can't

wait to dive in more into that.

So thank you so much.

And I would, I'm kind of already thinking,
ooh, I want you back for another episode.

It's been a great pleasure.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.