Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Anke.

I'm super happy to have you here today.

Angie: Thank you.

Yes, yes, the boy, yes.

Anke: So why don't we start
out as I always start out, let

people know where you're based
and so what's your business dogs?

Angie: I am basically a dog parenting
coach, and I'm based in Columbus, Ohio.

Anke: All right.

Tell me about dog parenting coach.

Who do you coach, the dog or the parent?

Angie: The parent.

But what I coach the parent with is
actually exactly how to guide your

dog into happiness and good behavior.

Yeah, you can't, you can't
have one without the other.

You know, a happy dog cannot be a well
behaved dog and a well behaved dog

will not be happy unless you have both.

Anke: So what's the biggest mistake
you feel people make that leads

to, you know, problem behaviors or
frustration on both ends of the leash?

Angie: The main concept when we're looking
at a big picture, and I've been doing this

for so many decades that, you know, I've
gotten to the nitty gritty and all the

way to the big picture, um, which is what
I cover in my book, Don't Train Your Dog.

So the biggest problem and the biggest
misunderstanding is viewing dogs from

a dog training, training an animal
type perspective, as opposed to

parenting an emotional, intellectual,
emotionally entangled family member.

So the, the, it, it, the mistakes happen
when you view them as you're trying to

train a wild or domesticated animal.

Because we, we, we're living with them
in our homes as part of our families.

They are part of our families.

Um, and so we, what's missing
is being able to teach them.

Modern family life skills that they need
in order to be happy and well behaved.

And you don't get those with dog training.

Anke: So what's the biggest
difference in the, in the approach

between, you know, dog training and,
um, you know, and teaching my dog

to, to live in a human household.

Angie: I think the easiest
way to explain it is that dog

training is for teaching tricks.

Okay.

So it's sit for a treat,
go to the spot for a treat.

Off.

Down, you know, those kind of
things, right, for a treat.

Or then you've got the harsh,
super harsh, obedience.

So it's dog training equates to either a
philosophy of fear in equals reaction out,

or food in equals reaction out, right?

But really, you're, that's, it's, that's
like treating your dog like a simpleton.

They're so much more capable
of so much more than that.

And they have evolved to be.

Entangled with us, you know, I mean,
studies show that dogs are born to

look to us for guidance, to look to
us, to read our facial expressions,

to read our eye movements, finger
pointing, to locate objects, right?

And so they've already got it.

They're born with it.

They don't learn that.

They're born with it, right?

So now that gives you a clue that
we're entangled with them, right?

They're born entangled to us.

So now you take them and then you, and
then you're essentially pushing them out.

And treating them like, you
know, a wild or domesticated

animal that you're training.

Instead of using, they know exactly how
to use that entanglement to communicate

with us, but we don't know that because
we're so, we've been taught this dog

training mentality all our lives.

Anke: That makes so much sense.

It makes, like, it reminds
me of like little Leo there.

He, like, he was like, yeah, I was like,
well, you're way too smart for this

because he would do kind of anything.

I asked him when he would see the
sense of it, like he literally

could see his little face, you know,
when there was a treat, he'd do it.

But like, if I asked him to sit, for
example, he'd look at me and be like.

Why?

You know, and if it made
sense to him, then he'd do it.

If he goes, well, I don't know, you're
just making me jumping up and down,

that makes no sense, he wouldn't do it.

So there was always, I kind of got a sense
for like, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot

more to, to him than, than meets the eye.

So what's one to do instead?

Well,

Angie: so you're exactly right when
you say it needs to make sense to them,

because that's how dogs see things.

And that's what I explain
in the book, is that.

Learning how to communicate with them
in a way that makes sense to them, you

know, not make sense to us as in treat,
sit, you know, all this, this stuff.

I'm not saying you never disagree
with them, you guide them.

No, not this, but yes, this,
but there's a way you do it.

And it has to make sense to
them, or they don't get it.

So then you're wasting your time, you're
confusing them, the per the human gets

frustrated, the dog gets confused and
scared a lot of the time, um, but if

things make sense to them according to
their natural wiring, and that's how my

recipes and prescriptions are approached,
if it makes sense to them their national

wi natural wiring, then they got it.

When it ca it causes anxiety when people
are asking them to do things in a way

that makes no sense to them according
to their natural wiring or according to

mother nature, what they've been given.

Anke: So, I mean, that's really
funny because like Mrs, Mrs.

Mastiff here, you know, has these very,
you know, like she's a guard dog and boy,

you know, it's like, it's really like
her natural wiring is really prominent.

Like when she takes her work so
seriously, so, and you can't tell

her not to, not to guard, you know?

So it's that piece of,
Hey, let's go in, okay.

No, she'll come in.

Like, if you try and kind of yell
at her, not to, not to bark, she'll

go like, what are you saying?

Like, don't you see that I've
got work to do here, right?

So it's like, she's reacting quite
differently from what the other

two who are different breeds.

Like, that's really, yeah.

So, it's like all kids.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All

Angie: kids are different, you know, but
you can still, but there's some, still

some parenting philosophies that work.

Pretty much across the board.

Yes, you've got, you know, a
strong willed and then you've

got, you know, of human children.

Well, dogs come with their own wiring too,
but they're simpler, you know, they're

more simple in their philosophies in life
and like, well, philosophies, you know

what I mean, by their view of life, um,
and their view of their, their current

daily life and their current families
and environments are everything to them.

And so when something's not according
to what makes sense to them, it

causes them great anxiety, right?

And then you're seeing they're not
understanding it, then you're seeing

this aggression or whatever, but you
can, or mostly fear and aggression,

but you can guide your dogs.

And what we do at Parenting for
Dogs is guide your dogs and with

these recipes and prescriptions
into saying, yes, I, you know, a

dog has a reaction to guard, right?

And only really in essence, A,
uh, an action can truly replace

another action for a dog.

Yes.

So you have to say, no, I don't want
you to do this at this time, but

here's what I do want you to do.

But it has to make sense.

It has to be a lateral move to
them if you, if that makes sense.

Mm-Hmm.

. See, it can't just be, Hey, I want you to
just sit there and not move for a second.

You know?

Or don't move a muscle.

under, under this dress, or you
know, here's a treat, here's a

treat, they don't care about it,
they're just still, they're, the

urge to bark or whatever is smart.

I like my dogs to bark, but I want
to show them, bark when you go to

the door, and then when I say, I'll
be done, then that's enough barking.

And dogs have the ability to make choices,
to um, come up with ideas themselves,

and everything, they're just not given
that chance, and people aren't seeing it,

because you cannot see the true ability
of a dog, In a group training class, a

laboratory, or anything, you can only
see those things and those modern skills

for family life can only be taught in a
family environment when they're connected

to a human that they trust and respect.

Both.

Then you see the full potential.

Anke: Yes, and I think what I hear you say
is that we massively underestimate them.

And I think almost by asking them
to do stuff that doesn't make sense,

especially if you come from like
training and sit and plot and treat

and whatever, you know, like if you go,

would it be fair to say that they don't
really feel heard and understood, which

probably impacts how much they trust us?

Angie: Well, um, yes, they have to
respect us, and in order to do that,

you have to be able to communicate with
them in a way that makes sense to them,

that, you know, relax here, I've got
this, we're fine, you know, everybody's

fine, relax, um, that you're confident
and firm, but with the prescriptions

and the recipes, it's almost like Once
you see him, you're like, everybody

becomes confident because you're like,
oh, I see the results of it immediately.

And then, and then the
parent becomes confident.

And then, but the dog doesn't, what
you're seeing is more like, it's not

like, oh, she's underestimating me.

But in dog terms, it's more like,
in dog world, it's more like, she's,

um, that's not making sense to me.

She shouldn't be doing that.

And now I'm confused.

And now I thought maybe since I'm
confused, I thought maybe she meant

something else and she didn't,
and that doesn't make sense to me.

And now I'm get frightened.

Maybe I get frightened of her, okay?

Maybe I get frightened of something
that was, you know, just happened

to be happening at the same time.

Um, it, it feels like, you know, this
is sounding elaborate, but it's really

very simple and like, once you just get
it down to the, what I call the five,

five big stuff rules that we want dogs
to con that I concentrate on teaching

dogs for modern family life, um, And
then add that to that and balance

that out with the full fulfillment.

You know, that any kind of guidance you
give, no, not this, but yes, this, as

long as it's given in an emotionally,
emotionally neutral state, then dogs

understand it and then they, they
accept it and they can understand it.

And there's, you don't flip into fight
or flight and you don't flip into them

just ignoring you and brushing you off.

Cause you, cause you're,
you know, of no consequence.

You've got that parenting sweet spot.

Anke: I mean, it's like funny,
like it feels like it's not that

different from parenting kids, right?

So what are the five house rules?

Angie: Well, the five big, and I do
want to say first, it is like parenting

kids, because once I've done this for
decades and decades and I've fixed My

skills and my knowledge has come from
just being, working with the worst of

the worst cases, like fixing unfixable
dogs that were, you know, giving up,

giving up for, um, euthanasia or, you
know, just nobody can handle them.

Nobody can be in.

And so when you start with that
bad, that all the other just

normal daily life things are
teaching dogs gets, gets simple.

Cause it, cause you did
the worst of the worst.

And then I did it for
years and years and years.

And so I finally realized that.

I am comfortable and it is accurate to say
I'm parenting the dogs because I had two,

two boys I was parenting at the same time.

I realize I'm parenting them both because
my definition of parenting is providing

love, guidance, um, love and guidance to
vulnerable members of a family, right?

So that includes, that
includes them, right?

But here's where the
rubber meets the road.

Um, you want to give this love,
support and guidance to both.

But the way you give it to dogs
is completely different than you

give it to kids, and that's where
the misunderstandings happen.

Anke: Okay, so what should we do then?

Well, give us, give us like a
one off little recipe, like give

us a bit of a taste, you know?

Angie: Okay, so um, it's, it's hard
because even in the, in the book we talk

about how the first read on the book,
which is basically a workbook, but it's,

you know, it's got everything in it.

It's got, you know, family stories
and life stories with dogs and, and

humor and, you know, the things that
you, you, you come across with just in

living with dogs and these incredible.

species that they are and that they
picked us to be entangled with,

which is, you know, a privilege.

So I'm saying we want to, you know,
treat that privilege correctly by

teaching them rules that they can, um,
use in modern family life so that they

don't lose their home, they don't bite
kids, they don't do all these things

that they're only doing these things
because they just don't understand what

you're trying to teach them because dog
training does not work in their mind.

It teaches them tricks.

So the five big stuff rules that I
focus on is number one, no aggression,

um, no teeth on humans because we
accidentally have them touch us with

their teeth and then they get bigger
or something happens and then, then

you're like, oh, don't bite me.

Well, it's like, we've just been teaching
them to bite us the whole time because we

just allowed them to put their teeth on
our hands and we were playing with them,

playing with their mouth or whatever.

That's extremely unfair.

Right now we're saying, oh, don't
bite, you know, or people teach, teach.

Parents teach dogs to sit for a treat and
then they're like, yeah, it's working.

Look how smart he is.

Right.

And, and then they try to teach them
not to bite a kid with the same way.

All right.

And then, then, then it goes downhill very
quickly and the dog ends up losing its

family and its home through no fault of
its own because they thought they could

teach family safety rules the same way
they taught the tricks and nothing could

be farther from the truth, you know?

So, but you asked me, what is one example?

Yeah, sorry.

I'm sorry.

I'll go.

I'll go off the board
on dogs all day long.

I love it.

Anke: I love it.

Angie: Um, so one of the
recipes, for example, is

The What's Not Allowed recipe.

So it doesn't, you can't involve treats
in the What's Not Allowed recipe, right?

So, you know, you go out of your way other
times and, and for other things to catch

them having good behavior to, to when
they stop doing something you ask them not

to do and, and, and did the right thing,
you over praise them then, super excited.

There's certain times you can
use excitement voice, certain

times you use treats, but in the
What's Not Allowed, you can't.

And part of it is you're not getting
enough eye contact with the dog.

So that recipe involves You know, um,
stopping the behavior, how to stop

the behavior with a neutral mindset,
perfectly calm because I know the

recipe so I don't have to panic.

I know I'm gonna do.

Um, I, you can even parents stop panicking
about when their dog's gonna do something

because they know here I'm watching the
behavior, which we explain in the book,

look for this, look for this little
behavior, look for this, you know, the

way they turn their head like this, or
they move a paw like this, or, you know,

I teach how to look for those things.

As soon as you see those, and that's
called seeing the guidance moment.

That's when you know you gotta
step in and provide the guidance.

This guidance says no, in a way that dogs
can understand, which is, you know, it

kind of has to be built on in the book.

No, I don't want you to do this.

Okay, and then a little bit of
eye contact for just one second,

1 1000, just let it sink in, okay?

Because it's not this distraction, you
can't just distract them at that point

with something they don't learn, okay?

So, it's the eye contact because you have
this relationship with them, because they

trust and respect you, you're not going
overboard, you're emotionally neutral,

get the eye contact and then say, we
don't, so that you say, we don't, we

don't ever do that, but here's what we
can do, and then you immediately switch

to the, it's an incomplete teaching
moment not to do the what you do instead.

Yes.

And that doesn't, that's, people think
that's being taught by distraction, like

this treat with distraction, and it's not.

That's why it's going off the rails.

That's why your trained
dog is going off the rails.

Anke: That makes sense.

That makes sense.

So what kind of replacement behaviors,
you know, especially like, okay, now let

me let me use a real life example, Mrs.

Guard Dog Leah, right?

So she's got a front yard at
night, she sits there on the porch.

And, you know, she takes her job
very seriously every now and then.

It's very cute, actually.

So every now and then she comes in,
she nudges everybody, like the dog,

you know, people, everybody here.

Okay.

So I can kind of go sit there.

And then all of a sudden she
will charge the door because she

obviously, she heard something.

Right.

So now when she alerts, well, fair
enough, you know, obviously that's your,

that's what you can do your job fine.

But it's almost like.

When it gets like you kind of ramping
yourself up, you know, when she gets like,

and I'm like, if I want to step in and
say, okay, I've got you, you know, like

you're good now, you've done your job.

It's my job now.

So if I'm standing there sort of
in the front yard, You know, what

kind of replacement behavior could,
I mean, could I, could I offer?

And I do, in my experience, treats
don't, like, when they're excited, the

treat's the last thing on their mind.

Like, she won't even want it.

So I perfectly, you know, love
that you're saying, like, treat's

not your answer for everything.

So, you know, how can I, So, um, you
know, you have to be able to communicate

effectively that you've done your job

Angie: and you can kind of go now.

Right, right.

I can tell you have experience
with dogs because, you know, you

understand that there's these
subtleties that come in, right?

You see all the subtleties and those
things have to be addressed, okay?

But it's so much easier than you think and
it really is, you know, dogs see things

in a very black and white way, right?

Things are always allowed
or never allowed, okay?

And that's when you get to the
safety rules or the five big

safety rules I'm telling you about.

That's, uh, this is never allowed.

Right?

The thing you're talking about is, if you
want your dog to bark at the door when

somebody comes, or to do that, first,
you're correct, the dogs come in and like,

that's when they're always like, that's
how you're addressing separation anxiety

too, is to understand that like, when you
come back and to understand what drives

them on that, that's how you fix that.

But she's coming in and checking to make
sure everybody in the family is here.

We're all together, because
that's what they want.

They want it to be all together.

We have to teach them that sometimes
we leave, and then sometimes we

come back, and to be fine with that.

But they want us to all be together.

So she's checking.

So she really does believe that
that's her job, is to check to make

sure everybody's here, and then to
confront any dangers or strangers.

So what you have to communicate
to her is, listen, either you

want her to do that or you don't.

I don't want him to do that because
that causes problems, right?

I do want him to bark at the door,
um, which is a little bit different

because that's the hybrid, almost
like a hybrid trick because I do

involve a treat in that that I teach
in the book to say, bark, bark, bark.

Yes, go ahead and bark.

But now when I say, all done, Then
I give a treat for that, right?

So that one does, once
they're calm, I give a treat.

Not when they're barking, you know,
not in the middle of it, right?

When they've understood, I said,
that's enough, you can stop now.

You know, I have, you can have
the patience when you're sure

about what you're doing, ask the
person at the door, sorry, we're

having a training moment, just one
moment, everybody's happy to help.

But you're trying to rush to the
door and get it normally and that

causes all the, you don't get to
address or do your guidance or

do your parenting because you're
stressed about getting the door open.

But really, if you pre think these things
like it says in the book, you're calm.

You go there and you say, Nope, hold on
just one second, just, Doing a little,

we're learning something here, learning
some skills and then address them

when you get them completely stopped
without eye contact, then all done

and then you can give them a treat.

So that teaches them from then on later,
you do that few repetitions and then

when you say they run to the door,
bark, bark, bark, you say all done

when they do and then they go back.

for their treat, you know, so that's
a little pseudo one where there is a,

there is a treat involved in that one.

The bigger concept of what you're talking
about being outside is that you would have

to step between her and the, the person
or the stranger, what I'm just like, ah,

I don't, I don't need, I don't, I don't
need you to protect me in that way, right?

I, I, I protect our
family so you can relax.

It gives her more relaxation.

It gives her be able to, she
can see that she's off duty.

Right?

And so you have to be very clear
showing them that you can be off duty

on this, I take care of this, I make
sure everybody's fine, you know, every,

you know, no, no, no family members are
hurting other family members because I

make sure everybody's fine, you know, so
that that's what they need to understand.

And if they trust and respect you, then
they'll understand, understand that.

When you say, I'll handle this, right?

Yeah.

I mean, that makes so

Anke: much sense.

Angie: Yeah.

So, but when you're afraid of
a child or something, there's a

whole, um, dog, you know, kind
kids and confident canines recipe.

Right.

So it, it's.

It's not exactly what people think it
is because they think, Oh, I'm going

to teach my kids to respect my dog.

It's, I'm not going to
let them hurt my dog.

And then, and vice versa.

But it's not as simple as that.

It doesn't work that way because
the dog has a different view

of what is, what is happening.

And the child has a different view
of what's happening or a child may

be a baby and can't do anything
for itself, a toddler, you know?

So that's a bigger subject.

And I do just discuss exactly
how to fix that, exactly how to

make that relationship happen.

But, I would say, for example,
a substitute behavior like

you were asking about.

Um, you know, we're not gonna,
you know, don't need to be scared.

We're not afraid, we're not, you know,
aggressive at anything around those kids.

I don't want that.

But I went, here's what I want you to do.

Get that toy.

Like, let's play with
that toy around the kids.

And then, but you have to
get the toy and play with it.

Like, it's the best
thing you've ever done.

Yeah.

With the doll, right?

And then there's this good
girl playing with that instead.

And then pretty soon you start
seeing the choice being made.

Where, when the kids start playing
or getting rowdy, instead of them

being afraid, then they run and get
their toy and play over on the side.

Or, you know, there's just so many,
so many things in the book, it's hard

to, it's hard to get into all of them.

Anke: Do you, do you have a copy
there that you can just kind of hold

Angie: up?

You know what, I just, the book
just came out yesterday, I was just

thinking this, and I was like, I
gave away my last physical copy.

Oh, my lord.

This is the front cover,
the picture of it.

It's called Don't Train Your Dog.

It's at Amazon now, of course, but
um, our website is parentingfordogs.

com with a number four, parentingfordogs.

com.

So I'm

Anke: just going to have to kind
of go get that right now because

I'm totally intrigued because a
lot of the stuff I actually, um,

I'm like, yeah, that's kind of like,
that's my experience because when

I go with those two big girls, when
I'm out, That's exactly what I do.

It's like when there's sort of another
dog or somebody's coming and I will

just kind of literally like no, you
go over here and I've just got a, I'm

between them and they go, okay, whatever,
you know, so it's like, I've got you.

This is like, I don't, you know, so
it's, it's, um, It's just like when

they actually hear and they sort of
hear something like another dog outside.

It's almost like when there's nobody
inside, you know, so it's that, it's

that, um, yeah, but I'm sort of now
really curious, like this is really

interesting because now I'm kind of
really curious to find out, you know,

what are the signals that I'm missing?

And actually the other one is.

Is she, like, I always have a toy with me.

I never take treats because none, neither
of them are interested in treats on walks.

Right.

But I always have a toy.

Right.

Because like this other one,
she is literally, when she gets

excited, first thing she does, she
turns around and grabs the toy.

So that's like, you know, that's what
I taught her when she was little.

And that's what she does to this day.

You know, her reaction is get the toy.

So it's really easy.

And then And I can almost gauge her
excitement level by how she, if she's

like, uh, okay, so she's not even excited.

If she's really excited,
she just fully goes for it.

Right.

But it's like, you can level her,
you can gauge her excitement level.

And it's also really easy to, to re,
to redirect because she'll go for

the toy and then whatever the cat or
whatever kind of excites her, it's

just like no longer of interest.

Right.

Right.

Angie: Right, so what, so you saw a
piece of what I'm talking about, right?

So you're, you're, like a lot of people
who have worked with dogs and, you know,

a lot of people have their hearts in the
right place saying, you know, I'm going

to just distract them or try to give
them a treat all the time and those are

involved, but the timing of when you're
doing those and, and, and expecting those

to do it solely by themselves, treats and
distractions by themselves will not do it.

Fear and harsh obedience will not do it,
only this, you know, parenting for dogs,

mental guidance, sweet spot will do it.

So you've experienced
some of what I'm saying.

And, and you're like, you're almost there.

Like there's just like 20 percent
that like, say people who have

experience with dogs like you,
they're, they're almost there usually.

And there's about 20 percent that
though is so different that it's

just, it'll put you over the edge
to what you're like, Oh, okay.

This has been what's missing.

Right?

Is when what's missing.

I'm almost there and you can feel, and
you can see some things work and then

then they don't work and then other
things don't work, but this does, why

does it work on one dog and not on the
other, you know, there's just 20 percent

about missing from what, what you need
to know to, to bring it all the way home.

Right.

And, and this, this, you can't find this
anywhere else because I developed this.

over, over 25 years that I've been
working with it and I just kept

constant notes and constant video.

So there's a video companion, a digital
companion that goes with this book.

So in the introduction, you don't have
to use the videos, um, but people who

want to use the videos, there's a QR code
and it comes free with the book and you

just scan the QR code with your phone
if you'd like to, if you're reading the

first chapter, if you'd like to see what
I talked about in the real chapter or

see me doing it in real life with dogs.

Um, you can go to that, or, but
everything's really self contained in

the book, you don't have to do that, but
digital companion if people don't want to.

But also there's a lot of other
resources will be at the website, um,

the Parenting for Dogs website too,
that has like, you know, a community of,

of tell your, tell your dog parenting
stories and, and how you work this out.

You know, I read the book and then I
worked this out that I didn't have,

and then that helps other dog parents.

So just like parenting kids
that we all learn from.

What we've learned from
other moms and dads.

So it's like that.

And, but the problem is, and the, you
know, especially even after COVID,

even before that, dog behavioral
problems were skyrocketing, you know,

and, and their dogs are being given
up in record numbers to shelters.

And it's all because of what's missing
in this book, and so I could, had to

make the book, I couldn't stop, and you
know, that's why it's taken decades.

I've had videos and stuff before
that, and I've been working on it

forever, but now I had to exclusively
go to putting everything from my,

all my decades of work into this one
place, so that I can finally push it

over the line and get people to see.

And then, and stop this problem that's
happening that it's completely avoidable.

Anke: I think that almost
makes it worse, right?

When you kind of see that it is actually
fixable, you know, so it's almost like,

well, then, you know, part of this
conversation and any other conversations

we, I hope we have, uh, to really get
this in as many hands as, uh, people we

can, because like, you know, every dog
parent who understands their dog better,

you know, You know, will basically
diminish or like eliminate the risk

of that dog ending up in your house

Angie: or kids being bit.

And, um, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's
haunted me ever since I've, you know,

I've, I've started, I started figuring
it out and I was like, Oh man, this

is just a colossal misunderstanding.

And we're, you know, we're seeing them
from this dog training standpoint,

instead of what they actually are, um,
and what they're actually capable of

and what they're thinking and, and, and
reading us and what we're, we're, we're

totally missing it on most regards.

And then I see dogs just losing their
homes and, and suffering and, and, and

dogs are paying a brutal price for this.

Misunderstanding what I, what
I say is like, you know, you've

got the harsh obedience or would
never use treats or anything.

And then you've got the only treats
and distractions, and then they're

battling each other and all these parents
are being caught in the crossfire.

And so then you're afraid to make a move.

And what I talk about in the book
is this parental paralysis by

analysis has made our, our dogs
are paying a brutal price for that.

Anke: Yes.

Angie: Right?

It's not Terrence's fault.

It's not our, it's not their
fault because the information

just not out there until now.

Um, so imagine if you were in my spot
and I knew I could stop it and I knew I

could save all these dogs and I've been
saving dogs this whole time, but now I

got to save millions instead of thousands.

Then, you know, I don't, I
don't, I, I don't sleep at night.

I bet.

I bet.

Anke: Yeah, I think it's
It's the only reason why.

Angie: You know, it's crazy to continue
doing something against all odds for 28

years, but if you knew you could stop this
suffering you couldn't stop either, right?

And I knew I could, so I couldn't stop.

It's been quite the, quite the journey.

Anke: I think, well, you do, it's
like, I love your energy around this.

And I love the passion behind it.

As I'm almost like, I'm going to turn
around and get that book right now.

I think I would love to have you
back because it's, um, you know,

it's definitely, you know, the,
the, the, the impact, the massive,

you know, because it's, it's.

The dogs are the ones on the receiving
end, but I think, you know, the, the

people who wanted the dog for the
connection and don't manage to, to kind

of find this place of understanding.

So it's kind of bad for everyone, right?

So it's, you know, but what's, if
there is a solution, then let's make

sure everybody gets their hands on it.

Angie: There's absolutely a solution.

Absolutely.

And it's not hard what people think.

There isn't just, you know, there
aren't, there's no magic and mystery.

It's like, it's, if you read the
book and you see you're like.

You know, I'm, you, you're led to believe.

Like typical dog training shows
and books and things like that,

you know, tend to water things down
and make them look easier or more

effective than they really are, right?

Because it's a show, you know,
it's entertainment, right?

And then the whole time it's killing
me because that's not gonna help,

you know, that's making you think
something's, oh, well, I've got

the only dog that can't be fixed.

I've got the one with the problem
that can't do this because everybody

else seems to be able to fix it
with this, when really they're not.

They're struggling as much
as you are as a dog parent.

So that's what's.

So heart wrenching about it is that,
is that I'm, you know, I've watched

all this happen and, and knowing that
I'd be able to fix it, but you got to

get it, I had to get it into a form
because it's got to be easy enough.

It's got to be usable in daily life.

It's got to fit right into your family
life, whether you, whether your family

is you and your dog or, you know, what
we say, or you're a member of a, the

Brady Bunch, you know, it's all, it
works in all environments, all families.

And so it's one thing for
me to know how to do it.

But it's a whole nother thing for,
I had to get it simple enough.

Easy enough, effective enough
that everybody can do it, right?

That it's not a mystery.

There's no like just some certain
people who can, people see me do it

and they're like, oh, that's just
because you're great with dogs.

It's like, I learned this.

I learned it.

I figured out how to do it and then
I learned it and then I teach other

people and they're effective too.

Yes.

I mean, I've worked with the worst
of the worst cases that most dog

parents are never going to see.

I mean,

Anke: look, I was going to, like,
I know I'm going to sort of mess

up the timing here, but I just
couldn't, can't help myself.

Like, how did you get to a place?

Like, nobody would trust the
most difficult cases to me.

Like, you know, it's almost an
I'm not like a newbie, right?

But it's like, how did you get into a
situation where you ended up working with

these really difficult, you know, cases?

Angie: Yeah, it started out, I mean, I was
not, this was not intending to be my life.

I was, you know, raising two young
boys and I started volunteering.

I knew, you know, I'd always
done some dog training.

And then I realized when I realized
a couple of things like that dog

training doesn't work for that when
it was like, you know, my dog was

sort of became afraid of my toddler.

And it didn't work.

The other stuff doesn't work.

And I'm not getting rid of my dog.

And I'm not letting my
child get bit either.

So I was, I was forced
into figuring it out.

Like I had to figure it out.

I was, I was desperate.

And then I just kept like,
there wasn't anything to read.

I kept looking for it.

No, no answers there.

You know?

So then I just started figuring it
out by tiny pieces of things I would

learn or just about animal behavior.

I've, my whole childhood, I, I
spent, You know, basically outside

with animals, watching animals.

I've always been, you know, interested
in animal behavior and drawn to that.

My whole life has been about that.

Um, and, you know, I

Anke: But being in a situation where
you needed to find a situation, I

think that's a powerful rival, right?

Yes,

Angie: it was.

And so then I just started, when I figured
out how to do a lot of it, I was like,

oh, that dog training doesn't even work.

What everybody thinks is
going to work doesn't work.

And that's why all this is happening.

And then I'm, I'm, I'm
watching in these rescues.

I didn't work for one rescue.

I volunteered to help.

train, at that time, um, dogs that,
um, you know, couldn't be adopted yet

because they weren't so, you know,
because I had figured out some things.

Then I, then I saw, and I just saw
this epidemic of dogs, you know,

developing all these behavioral
issues, fears, aggression, and, you

know, basically our whole society's
inability to prevent or cure them.

And then I became, I was
just, I was distraught.

So then I thought,
there has to be answers.

There are answers to
things that make sense.

There's a natural order of things.

There's a natural thing, you know,
things can be just because we

don't know the answer yet doesn't
mean the answer doesn't exist.

So since I couldn't find it, I had to,
I couldn't find it out there already.

I had to figure it out myself.

So then I started taking worse and worse
and worse cases and then pretty soon

vets or other rescues started, you know,
knowing it's like, you know, Angie,

let's see if we can get it to Angie, but
I can only do so many dogs at a time.

So, you know, I have that
dilemma all the time.

But then I, I started recording it,
the behavior, um, just so that I

could help the rescue folks here.

If you, if you come upon this, help
this, well then it just snowballed

until I did case after case, after case,
after case, you know, hundred dogs.

So then by the time you've done that many
and you've done it for that many years, I

Anke: had

Angie: a file of notes like that big,
you know, from just like a five year

period, and then another five years,
and then another five years, and then

video, and then I started turning
it into systems, and then I started

turning it into videos with systems,
and then I turned it into the book.

Um, and got it all into the forms
of recipes and prescriptions.

So it's a 25 year journey, but the
part that is missing about that,

and that's a way longer story for
it, is that I was struggling during

that period of time with a, with
a, a devastating medical condition.

And, and, and I, I basically lost my life.

I was on the last hours of my life
and I was a recipient of a miracle.

And it's a long story.

And then I woke up and I realized that
dogs are the reason why I got to live.

My work with dogs.

And so I said, I've spent my entire life.

Since that moment, trying to repay
them for everything they did for me.

Everything they taught me and
everything they do for humanity.

So that's the reason why I've done
this for 28 years because I can't stop.

I don't, I owe it to them.

Anke: Love it so much.

Do you want to repeat the, I'm
all teary now, so thanks mate.

Do you want to repeat the name
of the book one more time?

Angie: Don't Train Your Dog.

It's a parenting to teaching
good behavior, calming fear

and raising happy dogs.

Anke: Love it.

Well, thank you so much.

I think we definitely have at least
another conversation or a masterclass.

So please let this not be
the last time we speak.

Absolutely.

For today.

Angie: Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks so much for listening.

If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget
to subscribe, and leave a review so

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And if you know a pawsome human
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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.