Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Annie.

I can't believe I've never
had you on the podcast.

So I'm very excited to have you here.

Me too.

Happy to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Alrighty, so let's start
out how I always start out.

Let people know where in this
lovely world you're based and

what's your business with dogs?

Annie: I am currently based in
Utah, which was not part of my life

plan ever to be in Utah, but we
moved here from Colorado years now.

This is the longest I've
ever lived anywhere.

And I escaped from Texas.

I'm sorry to The patriots who love Texas.

It was not for me.

I lived there 46 years
and did not like it.

I don't like the humidity.

I don't like all the things trying to
kill you like fire ants and rattlesnakes.

And I'm a mountain person.

I have to have mountains
and I don't know why.

I just am.

So we moved to Colorado and then we
ended up, because of my husband's job

change here, we're kind of near Park
City, if people have heard of that.

It's a big ski area.

We're not, we're in the town below.

Um, and I like, I like Utah.

I like cold weather.

I like mountains.

It's, people are outside more because it's
all, you know, we, we say it, well, we

took it, I think, from maybe the Swedish.

There's no bad weather.

There's only bad clothing.

So we get literally outside four, four
seasons a year, unlike Texas, which is

in the south to me, which is hot eight,
eight or nine months out of the year.

So.

That's why I ended up in Utah
and, um, I really like it.

It took, there's a culture adjustment
coming from flatlands of Texas to

the mountains and snow and all that.

And I have been working
with dogs for 25 plus years.

You start, stop counting after a
while because that's just rude.

You don't want to add all that up.

And I came out of rescue work.

And I say that the rescue, um, animals,
I was the person in Central Texas.

Rural, going to rural shelters
and picking the dogs that we

would put into our program.

It was through Austin Dog
Rescue back when they started.

in the 90s to 2010, a while ago.

And, um, there I saw a lot of my favorite
breeds, German Shepherds, Big Guardian

Lifestyke, Guardian Dogs, lots of Great
Pyrenees and mixes, and Herding Dogs.

And, um, the hard thing was, well
it's all hard, rescue is very

hard, and they're overwhelmed is
deciding who to take home that day.

Generally puppies, because they have the,
you know, the longest life ahead of them.

Because I'll never forget the eyes
of the dogs that I didn't take.

Because it wasn't back then, it
wasn't sheltering like it is now.

I mean, it's, there's overwhelm, but
at least there's talking about getting

the dogs into homes versus just you're
here so you're not making it out.

Um, and I'll never forget those dogs.

And that's who I learned the
most from is the shelter dogs.

My husband and I, poor man, never
had a single dog in his life.

He lives on a ranch in Texas
and we, together, we fostered

400 plus dogs over 10 years.

And that's what I learned.

That, that, if you can take a dog in
the most stressed out environment, and

I never got bitten, because they taught,
I've never been bitten, they taught me,

it doesn't mean you're a bad trainer if
you've been bitten, because it can happen

like that, uh, but those dogs taught me
about stress and trauma, and because they

were the most stressed out in their lives.

Even the best shelter can be very, very
traumatic for the most resilient dog.

It's like a kennel that's loud, they
don't know where they are, they've lost

their home, their whole world is turned
upside, they've lost their person,

uh, anything familiar to them, and so.

Helping shelter dogs.

I wish trainers had to do it.

I wish it was a requirement.

You have got to go work two months in a
shelter or over the summer or whatever it

is because they give you the most valuable
training to me that I've ever learned.

And then I wrote along the
way to best selling books.

Uh, this is my earlier one from 2015,
which is hard to find, it's out of print,

but you can still find it, and then this
one I wrote in 2021, and I almost didn't

write it, because I was, writing a book
is not easy, and you don't make a lot of

money on it, even though this has been
a bestseller for three years, including

a year before it came out, but this book
changed my life, because it's way more

than, the title is Aggressive and Reactive
Dogs, I didn't get a choice on the title.

So, But that's the most
common problem is reactivity.

So this book is everything, almost
everything that dog owners have

told me over the two decades,
what they have problems with.

Excessive barking, chasing, prey
drive, fighting with the other dog

in the house, you know, hurting
the children kind of thing.

And it's a positive reinforcement
way of dealing with that.

Even the scariest so called red zone,
which is made up from TV actor, red zone

dogs, um, how to do it with kindness.

And what this book.

opened my eyes to because I interviewed
17 professionals around the world.

Um, I kept learning from them and I, I
was retired when I wrote this, mostly.

I had a few consults.

I had removed myself from the
industry because it's a very

toxic industry in many ways.

I was having a really good life and then
I wrote this book and I got excited again.

And I've been teaching and working
with owners ever since, and I've

just fine tuned my life on the trauma
aspect of being a dog in this culture

that doesn't make sense to dogs.

You know, back when we all lived on
the farm, most people lived rural for

most of our history, and the dog had
a purpose, and walked along beside you

without a leash, generally, herding
the sheep, protecting the meat cart,

getting the varmints if they were
terriers, whatever, livestock guardian.

And then we all moved into the cities,
and they have to be on leashes.

And I love leashes for control, but
they also limited dogs responses.

Like, I'm getting out of here.

This is dangerous.

And so then you get reactivity.

We're nervous wrecks.

We all have a nature deficit.

Another reason I like living
in the mountains, because

I could be outside a lot.

So I, after I wrote that
book, I started really seeing.

The effect of trauma on dogs, and it's
kind of like canine body language.

Once you see it, once you understand that
a dog licking its nose, or wide eyes,

or slow blink, or a paw lift up, or that
shake off we talked about, that's low,

low level going, it's going to go up.

Anxiety if we don't respond, and if
we don't honor the communication, and

that's exactly how I feel about trauma.

That once you see and understand
the trauma that dogs go through, and

those are all my courses, are about
puppy, helping puppies, helping a dog

that's been in your life for 10 years.

We can still help that dog, but you,
you can't fix it through training.

That's what I have learned.

And I knew that instinctively,
but I've really fine tuned it into

programs to say, Sit down stay
does not help a trauma response.

Um, I want to give, show you this quote,
or say this quote that I really like

from Peter Levine, who, um, is really
big in the world of human trauma.

His quote is, trauma is perhaps the
most avoided, ignored, belittled,

denied, misunderstood, and untreated
cause, he says, of human suffering.

And I will say dog suffering because
dogs mirror us and we are not well as

human beings and COVID and plagues and
wars don't help us become, you know,

peaceful, more peaceful creatures.

So, um, it's just getting owners to
say my dog has had trauma and I mean,

I mean, I'm here to help the dog.

I'm here to nurture it and love it back
into healing versus you sit down and stay

and stay on your mat because I'm the boss.

That's weird.

That's hierarchical.

Anke: Yeah.

But that's, that's all.

I mean, I remember when my Kai got bitten,
like when Leo got bitten and the other

one, you know, came in this like, you
know, sort of just barely escaped with his

life sort of thing from, from this guy.

And the advice I got You know, well,
obviously from neighbors, but also from

local trainers, you know, was always
like, you're too nice to the dog.

Like, you just spoil them and
it makes everything worse.

You have to tell them who's boss, you
know, and, and all, and I tried the,

you know, training and this and clicker
and, and Leo just looked at me going

like, what the heck, you know, and, and
so Everything through that lens, you

know, what I've learned from you, for
example, it's like, oh yeah, that makes

so much sense, you know, and you said
something when you were at the summit,

the Panic2Peace summit last February, you
said something, uh, that I never forgot.

You said a dog can't learn anything
until their nervous system is calm.

And that was like, oh

Annie: yeah, you know.

We've reversed it, because a lot of the
training comes from military training.

Like, I am not impressed with human male
and female macho trainers who say, I can

train a military dog to attack this person
wearing a thing and schützen and train.

Good.

Do that.

That is not a pet dog.

That is not the Chihuahua, the Terrier,
the Bug, the Golden Retriever, the Lab

that needs, that lives with a family.

They don't need to
learn any of that stuff.

It doesn't translate well.

It's completely different from what I do.

And all the training in the
world will not solve a problem

that is in the nervous system.

And their nervous system is just the
same as ours, which makes sense because

we co evolved over 30, 000 years.

They have an amygdala, They
have a prefrontal cortex.

They have a nervous system.

They have a parasympathetic
nervous system.

So they can have trauma responses
very similar to us, like freezing, um,

fawning, which is a little more hard
to see, but we can see it in some dogs.

Um, bite is one.

When I, I hate There's a lot of
things I hate on social media, uh,

that are done to dogs for clicks
and likes, but I hate seeing a dog

that wants, doesn't wanna walk.

It just lays down on leash and ha ha,
the owner's dragging it or picking

that could be a shutdown and a freeze.

And so something has happened either
in that area to that dog or the smell

reminds them of something to potentially,
maybe the dog hurts, hurt his paws, hurt.

Pain has a lot, has a lot to do
with behavior and impacts behavior.

But it's not funny when a dog freezes.

It's very serious when a dog freezes.

And that's a trauma response, and
so often it comes out of the body,

where the body, because we haven't
healed that, and same with people.

You might meet somebody that you have
an instant dislike to, and because they

might remind your amygdala, which keeps
you safe, it's there for a reason, your

lizard brain, some people have called it.

That, a guy that looked like that was
really mean to me when I was a kid,

but you have forgotten that memory.

You just get that.

I say the amygdala says
you're in danger, girl.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it keeps us alive.

And

Anke: I think that you've just hit
on something that is, that it feels

to me is probably underneath a lot
of why this gets so much overlooked.

Because, you know, people might think,
oh, yeah, no, my dog's not traumatized

because they never got Abandoned, they
never got sort of shoved out of a car and

you know like how I mean I've seen videos
but I'm like oh my god you know when

somebody like opens the car door sort of
half doesn't even stop shoves the dog out

and goes you know and just leaves that
dog in the middle of nowhere and the dog

you know so or be attacked by another dog
you know or my dog's not had a dramatic

experience like that but there's a whole
bunch of other things that you know.

Could actually leave a mark that
requires some healing before, you

know, your sit plots and all of
that makes even any sense at all.

So can you just name a few things that
are quite common that, and it doesn't mean

that every dog gets kind of traumatized
by the mailman, but some might, you

know, so it's, and I think we sometimes
underestimate all the different things

that could cause a dog to have that stress

Annie: in their body.

Yeah, that's a great question.

And it is underestimated.

It's like the quote that said trauma
is the most, you know, we just

kind of blow it off in ourselves.

And, you know, there's big T and
little t, there's chronic trauma.

What upsets you may not upset me because
I have a different life experience

or just a different reaction to that.

So we all respond in our own ways, but
genetics certainly plays a role too.

And we know in human studies, you can
have the stress of your grandparents.

System and the studies from human,
uh, from dogla, dogs that are born in

laboratories, there's a famous study
years ago, years and years ago, that

if the mother dog was nervous, the
puppies were going to be nervous.

Even if they kept trying to
get that nervousness out.

and bringing in a stable sire.

Not every single puppy.

I just had three puppies
last year that I fostered.

Um, I took one of them back and he got a
foster and adopted immediately because he

was the biggest and he was so much bigger.

Like these puppies were tiny.

They were little, beautiful Labrador
mixes that had been severely

traumatized, kept in a kennel.

until they were 11 weeks old and
headed towards massive separation

anxiety and other problems.

He was fun.

I, there were 11 puppies and he was
big and bold and he's the biggest.

He got all the nutrients in the thing.

He didn't have any worries.

Um, and he was kind of picking
too hard on the other ones.

They would scream and squeal, and they
were much, I had the runt, and I had

the biggest, and I keep doing that.

Those are my two now, and my two before.

I don't know why, that's a weird thing
that I'm doing, but I took him back.

He was here 24 hours, and they were 11
weeks old, and I, luckily, the shelter

understood, and I said, I wanted two,
and there were six left by the time I got

there to foster, and they said, the animal
math, well, we have a foster for three,

and if you take two, that leaves one.

And I got to pick the three
out of the six, and I picked

the biggest and the smallest.

And just the look, I wish I could show
you, send in later pictures of him.

He was just like a king.

He was a golden doodle, like
just overseeing his thing.

Not a worry in the world.

When I took him back and they
had a foster right there to

meet him, she did adopt him.

He went and went to, it was a shelter
where the dogs had an open space and then

indoor and they were behind in kennels.

He went to every single kennel.

Hey man, how's it going?

And they were barking and lunging.

A cat tried to swat him and he's like,
Meanwhile, I had the two that were

shaking and screaming and freezing.

One of them had a beautiful
freeze, which I hate to say that.

It's not, I don't mean beautiful.

I mean, I wish I had gotten it on film.

Because if you went to
touch him, he would freeze.

He was six pounds.

And so human reaction is to pick
him up and cuddle him because

that's how we comfort each other.

Not if, if, if, if.

You don't know what that means.

And so anyway, there's so much
trauma that every human and every

dog responds to differently.

You can have a one time trauma
event, like a fight, which is how

we get a whole lot of reactive dogs.

Car wreck, the dog's in the car and
scared and saw the owner hurt, whatever.

Um, it's more likely that the genetics,
might be there because a lot of our

dogs are genetically whacked out
because of our breeding practices.

And then they get transferred
from home to home to home.

So a lot of times I'll go see a two
or three year old dog and I'll say,

how many homes does this dog have?

And they, if they even know, sometimes
they just find it on the street.

But birth home, probably stressful.

Second home got adopted.

Got dumped, got sheltered, got financial
reasons, there's reasons people can't keep

dogs, didn't like the kids, third home,
shelter, fourth home, you, fifth home.

That's a lot for the body to absorb and
dogs like routine, much like children

do, much like, they need safety.

And five homes in two years is not safe
for any of us, you know, so this is

why, um, I've been writing and creating
courses on trauma because, including a

30 day reset for any dog, either a brand
new dog, because you can avoid so many

of these traumatic responses by not, by
slowing down, we have, we do too much too

fast, and letting the dog adapt to the
new home, and that's not in three days.

I say the first 30 days that
animal is with you sets the tone

for the rest of the dog's life.

And particularly important
with puppies, because their

amygdala is saying, Am I safe?

Are you safe?

Am I safe?

And the world either proves that
they're safe, or they're not safe.

And we have a lot of control in that,
because we control everything about a dog.

And so if people would just
slow it down and not, and have a

neighborhood party when you get the
cute little puppy for Christmas.

And understand that ripping it
from its home, you know, it's not

like I'm saying every dog has to
stay with the mother dog forever.

That's not feasible, but it is
traumatic to take it for many

dogs and how they respond and,
and where they land is important.

So if you think I just took you
from the only thing you knew,

all the smells, all the sounds,
all the noise, all the routine, I

don't know what your routine was.

Maybe in a backyard kennel.

So my house is actually much
better for you, but I still have

to prove to you nervous system
puppy or adult I'm your safe space.

This is your sanctuary.

We're not going to go on walks
on day two, uh, when I in the 30

day reset, I say, don't go for
walks for two weeks, maybe three.

Unless you have that very rare,
Very self assured guy that I took

back because he was picking on the
other ones and I knew he had a home.

Um, he's rare.

I almost thought about keeping him
because I thought he would be a fun

sport dog because he was so brave.

But he's also gonna test you in a
way that, anyway, so yeah, there's so

many different contributing including
vaccines can, as a young puppy, You

know, when you get too many vaccines
or you get a Great Dane level for a

Chihuahua, because they don't necessarily
put a smaller amount, and then the

dogs soar, and you go to puppy class
that's chaotic and out of control.

Um, and my dogs developed car phobia, that
Finn and Cooper, who I have now, they,

I created a whole course from them, and
they helped me with understanding trauma.

I got them in 2011.

19.

Right.

COVID.

Five weeks of age taken from their mother.

Don't do that.

We want nine to ten weeks of age.

It's illegal in many places to do that.

I never knew why.

I never got to understand.

I never talked to the, I
talked to their daughter.

I never met the people who
did this to these dogs.

Put them in a car from northern Iowa,
uh, Idaho to southern Utah, seven or

eight hours in the car, and so they
paired the stress of losing their home,

throwing in the back of a car or truck,
no protection, thrown in the backyard,

they got worms, they got fleas, they were
fighting over food, there was no human

supervision, they paired that to the car.

Understandably, right?

You did

Anke: that to a child,
a kid would do the same.

Annie: Yeah.

And it took me seven months in 2019 to get
them to trust me in their bodies because I

didn't know what I knew after I wrote the
book from all these other experts who were

doing like Sarah Fisher, who does, she's
an expert on body language and body works.

She has a group called ACE, ACE
Connections, A C E, Animal Centered

Care, on Facebook that's free.

And she has a program called Free Work,
which is part of my healing protocol.

The Phoenix Healing Protocol is ACE work.

Free Work is very, very important.

You can research her and
she is in this book too.

She's one of the people, Dr.

Laura Donaldson, who's of course is on
Thinkific, um, talks about deep safety.

That's where I got the term deep
safety that I talk about a lot.

She created www.

FEMA.

gov And, you know, it's not forever.

When a dog comes to you and they
either just need to let that

body relax for 30 days minimum.

Can we give them 30 days, please?

Um, at least.

Um, it's not forever.

It's that initial, are you safe?

Am I safe in this home?

And if we prove to the dog they're
safe, then we get to the training.

I'm not one of those
trainers who's never trained.

I like five life skills that I
train, and recall is one of them.

My puppies were heavily traumatized.

They have an excellent recall.

And for me, it was, please like
other dogs as much as your genes will

allow you to, and please like people.

In other words, don't want to kill them.

And they're healers, and healers
can be very protective, and bitey.

When I tell her trainer, my
trainer friends, I'm getting

healers, they're like, Eww.

But

Anke: it's for safety, really, you
know, I mean, I don't, I'm not really,

I don't really care about You know,
when I look at these kind of police

dog things and sits and plots and
whatever, that doesn't really impress me.

It's like, I don't really care
whether my dogs, I don't need

you to be able to do that.

What I do need is if you are headed
towards the street and I call you

to come back, that I need, you
know, or if there's another dog

coming or like if something happens.

To know that you're not gonna,
you know, bite their butts

off and that you come back.

So there's like safety stuff that I want
them to be, uh, want them to respond

Annie: to.

Which is a much different place.

I want you to be safe and I
want to know you'll come back

because our bond is tight.

Versus you come back because
I'm the mean bad mom or dad.

I say so.

You're going to be zapped if you, I
mean, shot collars are just absolutely

atrocious and are illegal in many
countries and should be everywhere.

I'm, I have always spoken out against
them because you couldn't do it to a kid.

And if you can't do it to a kid, can
you imagine putting a shot collar

around your yard and your kids out there
playing and they get You can't do it.

You can't.

Don't do it.

We don't do it to cats.

We don't do it to horses.

We don't do it to giraffes.

But dogs are easy to train.

It's the trauma that's a little trickier.

It's the emotional regulation that's
new that we need to help people with.

I can train a dog to heal with
his neck up like this and to do

the I went to a schutz in school.

I can train My dog Finn loves bite work.

I can train all the I
can train a down stay.

I can do all that.

If I hadn't worked on his trauma And
made him feel secure, he would bite.

He would be dead.

If I hadn't gotten Finn, who
his response to the world is

a deep grab and then a bite.

And he's put his mouth on me,
but he's never bitten down.

And I appreciate that, if I
push him too far, you know,

because that's exquisite control.

Um, Cooper, his brother, who's got
more healer genes than him, even

though they're full brothers, and
Cooper, Finn has more border collie.

and a Portugali Code,
which is very interesting.

Cooper is more laid back, but even within
Cooper, if he's, he's got some pain.

He's the runt, and Finn's the biggest.

I have a problem with that.

Um, he's got some pain that
we haven't been able to

diagnose, which is very common.

He's five years old, and when
he is painful or doesn't sleep

enough, we interrupt dog's napping.

He gets grouchy with
his brother and, and us.

You know, like, he'll
just raise a little lip.

I'm not mad.

I'm like It's like if you're in
a relationship and your spouse

just comes home and yells, MAAA!

And you have a loving
relationship most of the time.

You're like, he's having a
bad day and maybe I could help

him instead of, how dare you?

I'm gonna put a shot collar
because you one time yelled at me.

A dog should be able to growl.

A growl is a precursor to a bite
and say, what is happening right

now is really distressing to me.

So much so that I'm growling
and I say, thank you.

I stop whatever's happening.

Um, Finn growled at me because
he didn't want his front nails

clipped when he became a full adult.

He was a little and we
did all the puppy stuff.

He was fine as a puppy.

You could hold him and clip his nails.

Acclimate, acclimate, acclimate.

Cooperative care.

I do a chin thing.

Put your head in the chin here.

You had him, uh, you know,
put your chin in my hand and

then let me do the vet stuff.

I did all of that.

He got fully mature and,
um, growled at me once.

A deep guttural growl that said,
do not touch my front feet.

And so many dogs don't
like their front teach.

Front Feet Touched.

So instead of saying, I'm gonna drag
you to the vet and drug you, I'm

gonna hold you down, I'm gonna muzzle
you because I have to do your feet.

I mean it starts from a health problem.

That's confrontational.

It's unnecessary.

It's responding force to force.

That doesn't always work well for anyone.

So I said, I'll get you a scratch board.

He loves it where he scratches the
front and he'll let me do the back.

That's when he put his teeth
on me because Jeff holds him

and gives him peanut butter.

If he, if he'll eat, if
he doesn't eat, we stop.

Don't wrap saran wrap around your
head and put peanut butter on it.

Um, we're just kind of diverting him.

And so we've done the front feet,
which he loves, it's a game, and

then I'm clipping the back feet.

I'm down on the ground and I see this
little paw, little toenail like this.

I'm like, I'm just gonna scooch
up in there and do it really fast.

That's when it happened.

I mean, he already had told me he
didn't appreciate it, so we'd moved to

the scratch board, but it's sometimes
they don't get the outside ones.

I picked it up and he jerked out of the
collar and growled and did this to, with

the, I mean he's 75 pounds, he's very
strong, he's one of the strongest bites

of any dog I've ever felt in bite work.

And I was like, oh my god,
I can feel him release it.

He made that choice.

He had that much control.

And he said, he said, stop it.

Stop what you're doing.

I don't care for it.

He didn't buy, I thought it would bruise.

It didn't even bruise.

To me, as a dog behaviorist,
that is fascinating.

He didn't go for my face.

If you were, that's how kids
get bitten, because they're

down there messing with the dog.

He said, stop what you're
doing with your hand.

I'm warning you.

And I said, scratch board, I will
never touch your front feet again.

So what I like, that's interesting.

Anke: Like, what do you think is the
difference between when he was kind of

all right with it as a, as a, as a puppy?

And as a grown up, is that like, what,
what could be the reason for that?

That's a great question.

Annie: And trainers will tell
you, those of us who work in

behavior, the most common age is
12 to 24 months that they call us.

That's a little bit of adolescence.

Fully maturing and they get
physically, um, stronger.

So they're like, I put
up that with a puppy.

Anke: Oh.

So it means basically I've never liked it,
but like now I'm big enough to tell you.

Ah, make sense.

Annie: Might even, they might even
freeze as a puppy and you're like,

oh, he's tolerating it just fine.

No, he's frozen in here.

Oh.

And we can physically, he was this
big because he was five weeks old.

So, you know, it's not that I
manhandled him and made him do it,

it's just that he didn't struggle.

So we think, oh, he can
handle it, can't he?

And then he got big enough, and that
happens a lot, and it happens a lot

with dogs that fight in between, you
know, the puppy might be You know,

the older dog's okay with the puppy
and has a puppy license, even though

you're annoying me because I'm grandma
over here and you're, you know,

grandchild bugging the heck out of me.

And then the old, as the dog gets bigger,
the older dog might say, I said, stop it.

And the bigger dog said, oh
yeah, because he's bigger now.

That have, I mean, 12 to 24 months
is a very, because we see kind

of more of the permanent changes.

And their personality
and that's how we are.

We're not the same people, thank God.

Anke: And teenagers are also
like a bit nutty, right?

They have teenage brains.

Yeah, yeah, that makes,
that makes so much sense.

So you've got Well, you've, you've
mentioned the 30 day reset and we're

going to definitely pop that in the,
in the show notes, but for people

who want to just have a little sniff
of like what this is all about, you

know, what have you got for them?

Annie: I have, um, to kind of get people
thinking about the idea of trauma, I

have a seven day, um, seven day step
process that you can get for free, which

I'm sure you'll put a link up there.

Absolutely.

Seven Steps to Healing.

And it talks a lot about some of the
bigger topics we're talking about,

but in bite sized pieces, so you
can just start thinking and looking

at your own life with your own dog.

One of it is, um, do a
whole lot of nothing.

Sit with your dog, read a book.

I want to, I want to know what, if
we were talking, I want to know what

your dog loves, what your dog doesn't
like, what noises he's sensitive to.

Um, you can't, you won't know that
if the dog's in the crate and you go

off to work for eight hours a day.

You need that time with
bonding, um, slowing down.

Making the House a Sanctuary,
creating that deep safety that Dr.

Laura Donaldson talks about.

How to do that?

Because we don't know.

We don't create safety
for ourselves very well.

And I think that's

Anke: the, that's the thing.

It actually works out
beneficial for both parties.

You know, so I think we actually, I think
you could literally take, it's really

funny, like you could literally take
the seven steps or the 30 day reset and

apply it to yourself and you'd benefit.

And you don't need to have
gotten robbed before, right?

So

Annie: it's like you don't need
some horrific, you know, Resetting

that, we call it a reset because
we're resetting that nervous system.

So if you take your, one of them
is stop doing what you're doing.

If you have an inkling that
it's stressing the dog out,

you have to know body language.

But reactive dogs, we say
they're overreacting, no.

They're saying I'm uncomfortable.

It's really rude to call them reactive.

It's like a reactive hysterical woman
when the man's beating her or says, I

yelled her down, you know, you react,
just take your blumps and shut up.

So a dog that's reactive, barking,
screaming on leash, that's My first,

first of all, the walk starts way
before you ever get outside the house.

We can't guarantee their safety in
public, um, but most owners just aren't

aware of the signs of trauma, like maybe
shutting down and not wanting to go out

the front door, is the dog stubborn, or
it's terrifying out there, or they're

noise sensitive, and you're at work all
day, and you need a camera in your house,

which is cheaper than ever, and you don't
know that he's barking at every single

noise that he hears, and he's exhausted
by the time you get home, and then you

take him on a walk, and he's exhausted,
he's trigger stacked, he's on a hair

trigger, and And this is how humans
get into road rage and even murder each

other because you're trigger stacked.

I mean, there's lots of reasons.

I'm not condoning murder by any
stretch or road rage, but we've all

probably done road rage because we've
been pushed and pushed and pushed and

pushed and then it's the final thing.

So you take it on a walk and he sees
a dog and a reactive dog is big.

I get away because
they're like, I am danger.

That's the amygdala.

You're in danger, girl.

You might die if you've ever
seen or heard a dog fight.

Among dogs that are leashed or a
stray comes bolting out at you.

It's terrifying.

Your heart rate will increase.

You'll probably scream.

You'll stick your hand in
there and probably get bitten.

That's how most of my clients get bitten.

Because your dog could literally die.

They go for the neck.

They, you know, even if there's Sometimes
they'll fight and scream and they'll

break up and there's just slobber.

You know, they didn't, it's like
Finn, they chose not to, or for

whatever reason they didn't wound
the other person, but the body

doesn't know, the threat is the same.

And the

Anke: stress is still there because
that's what happened to Leo.

Like Leo, like looking at back what
happened when he got bitten at 11

months old, it was exactly that.

Like he'd been like, oh I'm cute and
you know it, like and he'd be kind

of goofy with everyone, and that dog
was probably like, no you're not, oh.

And, and he actually, he did bite
him, but just like a little bit,

and the vet said, nah, that dog
didn't really want to do anything.

If he had wanted, this dog would be dead.

You know, so the other dog had actually,
but that wasn't Leo's reaction.

You know, he behaved as if
he'd like, like been killed.

Even like the day when
I took him to the vet.

Does that whole thing happen at night and
I had to kind of wait till the morning and

he was screeching the vet they couldn't
hold like they kind of needed three and

they actually needed to sedate him to even
look at what's going on you know and then

he did not ever like big male dogs and in
confined spaces after that so he certainly

did not perceive it as oh he didn't really
like me you know he literally Perceived it

as like, okay, I almost got killed here,

Annie: you know, and that's
the amygdala keeping you safe.

So then the amygdala is like, you're in
danger from that dog and that dog and that

noise and that noise and that skateboard.

And that person looked at you
funny and it just keeps building

and building and building.

So often anxiety will start
with a noise, noise phobia.

We know that that's
shooting through the roof.

There's 300 percent and since COVID.

Um, for a variety of reasons,
but also natural disasters.

I mean, those divorces moving, grandma
moves into the house and she has

dementia, so she's moving weird and
talking weird, or you have a baby and we

didn't actually, I mean, all of our human
stuff, including putting them in a car,

more dogs have anxiety than people are
aware of, I believe, I know that's true.

Um, all of that can build up, and so,
first of all, they are, um, worried about

the mailman coming to the door, the UPS
guy, and then they're jacked up from

that, so they go on a walk, and then
one incident like that, or a growl, or

they're trapped by our leashes, which
we, just, it's like, let's set up,

let's create reactive dogs as a society.

We've done that very, very well, and even
when I think about rescue work, the dogs

that I rescued, 1990 to 2010, Until I
completely burned out and was exhausted.

Um, they were a different, different
genetic makeup than the dogs today.

The first part of this book,
the first two chapters, is why.

Why are dogs so?

Why are bites through the roof?

Why are people being
mauled to death in dogs?

Google dog, dog maulings.

It used to be so rare.

It's still very rare because they have
exquisite control, many of them, but every

animal can be pushed to defend itself.

Yeah, and that's what we've done to dogs,
is we're saying, I'm leashed, you're

not my safe space, and here comes this
big bad dog that's going to kill me,

and then it transfers to the little dog,
and that dog, and then the, even the

collar, the metal collars on a, um, tags.

I say, don't get metal.

That becomes the clanging.

One, it hurts their ears,
because they're so sensitive,

can, and two, that's the cue.

When I start to use reactive dogs, I help
them acclimate to the metal clanging.

I mean, that's

Anke: the stuff that I find fascinating
because there's the kind of detail that

you wouldn't even think about, you know,
so, so that's why I, yeah, definitely, you

know, if, if you're listening and there's
like, Oh my God, that would explain a few

things, or maybe like definitely start
with the seven steps and do yourself

and your dog a favor and grab the 30
day reset, because it literally will.

Change your dog's life, you

Annie: know, and your relationship.

And I feel so strongly about it that
I've created an offline, off Facebook

community because I don't Like Facebook
for a variety of reasons including

them killing groups off just for their
algorithm is strange And it's called

the trauma canine trauma clinic and
it's a private community It's a paid

membership because that enables me to
keep creating courses and writing books

Absolutely, we keep it as low as we can
possibly keep it and they're free If you

join the VIP, you get all my courses.

So if you have a puppy, you can start
from puppy and go grow through the dog.

Um, and I walk through the courses,
um, in the VIP section live and

answer questions and you send videos.

So it's a way for me to
help hundreds of dog owners.

in a group setting where people
understand because they have the same

problem or they're learning about it,
um, versus one on one on one, which

is also why I wrote books, because
I reach thousands of thousands of

people, versus there's only one of me.

Anke: That's the thing, and he only
has 24 hours, so there's that little

tight limit to capacity, so it's this,
and you still get the Like you can

still get Annie's eyes on your like,
what's going on with my dog, right?

So it's, it's the win win win situation.

So I'll pop, obviously pop the
link in the show notes below the

video and wherever you're watching.

So it'll be like right below
and grab yourself a copy.

And um, yeah, let's just
slow it down a little bit.

Annie: So I'm going to
take a little break.

It's also for people who've tried it all.

I've tried the shot collar.

That didn't, that made
my relationship worse.

I've tried spraying with a water bottle.

I've tried this trainer.

I've tried that trainer because
you can get 4 3 trainers who are

not behaviorists and have not, they
don't know how to heal the trauma.

They can do a beautiful heal, but
the healing will not, healing your

dog past something it's terrified
of does nothing for the dog.

It does something for you because
you don't look, you're not

being pulled down the street and
you feel like we have control.

Humans want to feel like we have control.

Anke: Yeah,

Annie: but without
connection it means nothing.

Without healing the trauma and then
you do all the training you want.

Like I have gotten so deep into trauma
and I'm working with puppies again

recently that I forgot I like training.

I put so much training on my other
dogs because that was my focus.

Like they had all the titles
and the therapy dog sit downs.

Oh look they can sit on a
blanket for five minutes.

I don't care anymore.

Because my dogs were so
traumatized, I needed to help them.

But now that my dogs are five
Now they can go in the car.

They helped me write
that car phobia course.

Um, that dogs don't understand.

They're like your, they're
like your mentors, right?

They're the teachers.

Sarah Fisher said that, that
we are the students of the dog.

And I think so.

We should be.

Yeah.

So much about trauma.

And if I had done sit down, stay
with them, their minds were shot.

Their bodies were shot for seven months.

And I know that because I took photos.

And it was seven months
before I could help them.

And that was in 2019, and I've
learned so much since then.

Those foster puppies, I had six days with.

In six days their coats relaxed.

Anke: Yeah.

Wow.

I mean, that's good news too, to know
that it doesn't have to take forever,

but you just can't rush it, you know?

Yeah.

So thank you so much.

Uh, yeah, I think we, like, I think we
could talk, we could talk about this

forever because I find it fascinating.

We'd have been through all
of this with these two.

So, so it feels like, oh my
God, like, I wish I, I wish I'd

known you a few years earlier.

But, um, you know, second best
time is now, so here we are.

Thank you.

Thank you for coming, and I
can't wait to have you back.

Thank you.

Thank you for your podcast and
everything you're doing for dogs.

Annie: Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.