Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome,
Julia and Barbara.

I'm excited to have you here.

We've been trying to arrange this for
a while, but it's not that easy between

three and different countries and all.

So welcome.

Lovely to have you here.

So why don't we start out and I'll
hand over the mic to both of you

to just quickly introduce yourself
and then the good old question.

What's your business with dogs?

Excellent.

Julia: Well, I'm Julia Hawkins
and this is Barbara Patterson.

And between us, we're
barking up the right tree.

I love it.

Love the title.

Barbara, do you want to start
talking about how it all happened?

Because you were the one
that started it, weren't you?

Oh, it's all your fault then.

Yeah, it is.

Anke: Totally her

Barbara: fault.

Right.

So, um, so I live in Namibia, which is,
uh, uh, country in Southern Africa on the

Southwest, um, side of this big continent.

And I've been a dog trainer for years
and, um, been trying to expand my reach

and realized, um, that all the online,
you know, that, you know, working online.

Um, it's fun.

I really enjoy it, but I was a bit tired
of always doing everything just on my own.

Um, I've, I mean, I can, you know, I
have a history of doing a lot of things

for the first time in a place and so
on and always, always just on my own.

And I really didn't
want to do it on my own.

And so Julia and I knew each other,
uh, met in a, um, in a business group,

actually, in a dog, for dog trainers.

And.

Lit.

I literally woke up one morning thinking,
Julia, I'm going to talk to Julia.

I think we had at that point, done
the odd Facebook live together.

Julia: Yeah.

We had, haven't we?

Yeah.

At that point.

Yeah.

Barbara: Yeah.

And uh, yeah, so then I just sent a
message over to Julia to say, Hey,

do you feel like doing this thing?

Julia: And that was what that was.

August 2023, wasn't it?

End of August 2023.

Um, and then what we did from there
is we planned, um, an amazing free

festival for owners of Reactive Dogs,
where we brought together, was it 33

of the world's, like, top experts.

It was, it was brilliant, wasn't it?

Anke: I think that's how I found you.

I think before, before we sort of go
there, I'm still a little bit curious,

like, what, out of all the people
that were in that group, why Julia?

What drew you to her specifically?

I'd like to know this too.

Barbara: So, um, you know, I, I'm
a Buddhist, so I, I chant Nam myoho

renge kyo, uh, every morning, evening,
so specifically in the mornings very

much to like make the best of the
day, and I kind of had this, I just

had this wish, you know, to be able
to share the excitement, the, the

planning, the, the bouncing of ideas,
all the things when you do a project.

with another person, um, to have
somebody to really do that with.

And I think that there was no, you
know, there was no real sort of, Oh,

should it be this person or that person?

It wasn't really a selection process.

That was just, I literally woke
up one morning and I thought,

I'm going to reach out to Julia.

It was, it was literally just popped up
and I, I believe it was a response to

my pulling this out into the universe.

This is my person.

And, uh, and it was Julia.

And it, and I wasn't wrong, was I?

No, apparently not, right?

You're here.

No, we haven't had a moment
of Um, disagreement or no?

Well, no, no, no.

Look, we don't always agree a
hundred percent on how we wanna

do things, but, um, we don't,
uh, argue about it, you know?

No, we don't an argument ever.

We just talk about it.

And if one of us says, no, I don't
think so, then, oh, that's interesting.

You know, tell me why.

And then we, we make a plan together.

And I think that's sort of the,
the ticket to success too, right?

Because, because of that, we are
better, you know, there's always.

the other perspective
and it never gets boring.

Julia: That's

Barbara: for

Julia: sure.

Barbara: And we really, um, yeah,
we're really swimming in the

right, in the same direction.

Anke: So Barking Up the Right Tree.

I mean, that's such a cool name.

Um, I, I do recall discovering
you through that festival.

So you, is that the only event you host?

Is that a regular event?

And of course, what else are
you doing under that umbrella?

Julia: Well, the festival
was, as you know, huge.

It was, and it's still available.

So, and it's still totally free.

So, um, we'll give some
details if people want to.

It's still

Barbara: totally worth it, right?

Yeah,

Julia: it's, it's, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm,
I think we're both so massively proud of

what we achieved then because it was just
bigger, more comprehensive, more holistic

than things that have been done before.

So is it going to be a regular thing?

Well, no, not on that scale.

Um, I think we would both have tiny
little nervous breakdowns and probably

be gibbering wrecks in corners if we did
that every year or anything like that.

I think we'll probably do
something on a slightly smaller

scale at some point, similar.

Um, But we do still have loads of
other stuff going on, um, which is

to do with, um, Reactive Dogs and
specifically their owners as well,

because that's one of the things we
think is so crucial, is that it's about

the partnership and it's about both ends
of the lead and how important that is.

Um, so, you know, we've got a really,
we've got an amazing Facebook group, which

people are very welcome to come and join.

Which we'll give you the details of
that when it's appropriate as well.

Um, and we do, you know, we
do little free challenges and

all sorts of stuff like that.

And then we also run courses as well.

Um, which is based around, you
know, our ethos of, you know,

partnership, positivity, looking
after the human as well as the dog,

um, and, and all that kind of stuff.

So.

Anke: Yeah, I love that.

I love that.

And reactivity, it's such a, it's
like such a perfect topic in the

sense that I think a lot of, I mean,
I've hosted a summit last night.

Mine wasn't that big.

I only had 12 speakers, but, um,
you know, have been doing like

masterclasses every once ever since.

So there's been like, and every
time I ask people like, what are

you most curious to learn about?

You know, and somehow reactivity
comes up time, like it's a real, seems

to be a massive, a massive issue.

So it's one of those topics that's
precise and broad at the same time, right?

It's, what, what's your, your take on,
uh, I don't know, do you think it's, It

feels to me like as if it's kind of almost
like an epidemic, like it gets worse.

Is that your perception as well?

And if somebody goes, yeah, my dog
is doing like, what's the thing, you

know, where do you suggest they start
other than joining your Facebook group?

Barbara: I don't know.

It could, I mean, I know there are
people that have, uh, you know,

opinion or that it is getting
stronger for various reasons.

Um, and that might be.

You know, from, from breeding to,
um, you know, people's lifestyles

post, and then also the whole post
pandemic, lockdown and all those things.

So that may be true.

I also think that, um, you know, uh,

There is also a good
side to this, I think.

You know, as a Buddhist, I always try
to see both sides of the coin, right?

So I think the good message here is that
maybe also more people are increasingly

aware of how their dogs feel, right?

So that when they overreact, that it's
not simply, um, a question of my dog is

disobedient or my dog is, um, You know,
I don't know how to control the dog,

but really wanting to help the dog, but
feeling helpless at the same time, because

emotional, I mean, we know emotional
stuff is hard to deal with, you know,

between in any relationship, you know,
between any two beings, so whether they're

human, both humans or different species.

So I want to believe
that that is part of that

Julia: picture, for sure.

I think I'd agree with that, and
I think It's quite an exciting

time really, I think, in the
dog behaviour world, worldwide.

Um, in that there's this, there's a real
shift that started away from obedience,

um, and more towards welfare and, um,
and care, um, and that kind of thing.

And that's something that we're very much,
you know, want to be at the forefront of.

Um, and, and I think

What we're seeing with people is,
is in the past where it's been very

much about obedience is, is trying
to fit this different species.

They may have lived with us for 40,
000 or however many years, um, but

there's still a different species and
we're trying to put them into this

increasingly complex human world,
um, which is really, really difficult

and people are starting to notice.

Actually, that's actually quite hard
for the dog, as well as that being

hard for the human, and starting to
look at it from the dog's perspective.

And I think that, for me, that's a really
great starting point, is understanding

where the dog's coming from, because
the behavior is always going to be

driven by how the dog's feeling.

Um, and if you can start understanding
that dog's point of view, then, you

know, you're part way there already
and it's a brilliant foundation

for you to kind of move on from.

Anke: I love that.

I think maybe even in, in the
light of that, like maybe it

hasn't even gotten worse at all.

It's just, we're more aware of it
and, and approach it from a, do you

see there's like, because you're
in two different countries, right?

So do you find any Any differences there?

Because like, say I'm based in
Spain, so, but I'm from Germany.

So I see a massive difference there
in, in the core attitude towards dogs,

like what's expected, what isn't.

Say the germ in Germany, it's very much
like, even if I look, talk to my parents,

right, so it's like, no, no, the dog needs
to, you know, so this is how you do it and

sit and plats and, you know, it needs to
be all nice and orderly and disciplined,

whereas in Spain, yeah, nobody really.

gives a shit, but at the same time they're
also quite happy to consider themselves

dog lover when they have the dog chained
up on a little thing outside, you know,

and don't see anything wrong with it.

So, and I think the approaches
you would take and how you

reach people would be different.

So is that, is there something that
you observe from the, you know,

the clients you work with that
are in the countries you're in or

Julia: It is interesting because there
are differences that we've come across.

So things like, um, what's normal in terms
of leaving your dog outside, for example.

So in this country, it's not the done
thing to leave your dog out in the garden.

It's not the done thing.

Where Barbara is, it's much
more of a done thing to do that.

Um, which then you've got different,
slightly different challenges then.

Um, although to be honest, in terms
from a behavioural perspective, you

can approach the challenges very
much from the, from a similar place.

Um, if you understand what's
going on from the dog's

perspective, which is interesting.

But I, I know, and I, I would
imagine it's probably similar.

to Germany in the UK, in that there's
kind of, there's two schools of thought.

There's still people who have that old
school, the dog needs to do exactly as

I say, and you know, the dog is being
bad and needs to know right from wrong,

and all that kind of stuff, which we
know, actually isn't how dogs work.

Um, but there's a lot more now, people.

We've got, you know, we are lucky
here, I think, in that we do have, you

know, um, owners who are becoming quite
enlightened and, and are really keen

to, as I say, dig into that, uh, seeing
things from the dog's perspective.

So I think within the countries

as well, you see those

Barbara: differences as well.

What do

Julia: you see?

I think

Barbara: in Namibia, a positive And,
you know, positive reinforcement

based animal training methods are
still very much underrepresented.

So it's not easy to find
professional services.

Um, you know, if you, if you struggle,
if you want anything, and then

that the choice is really limited.

And then also in the, you know, the
sort of common perspective is that, you

know, reward and punishment, you know,
if the dog doesn't listen, we have to.

Use punishment so they understand if,
you know, that they do something wrong.

And that, I mean, I know that that is
very white, that is everywhere, right?

But, um, the problem that we have here,
I think, is that it's, you know, so few

trainers in the first place, and then
therefore also only, you know, even less

that work with force free methods, and
even less that really want to, um, yeah,

look at, look at the emotional world,
you know, that open, you know, that.

In a way we, you know, part,
partly share, you know?

Yeah.

Um, so yeah.

Yeah.

So it's, it's very, very interesting

Anke: for sure.

. Mm, I bet it's, it's quite the, yeah.

I think you, you are mentioning, uh, the,
the, the, what I just heard was that piece

said there isn't even that much awareness.

Like if people don't even, you know, well
there aren't many trainers, but I would

imagine they're probably also not that
many people even looking for support.

Because you know how you say it's like
it's not it's not what what you don't

know that gets you into trouble is what
you think you what you think you know

for sure, you know, and that's the same.

I mean, I don't want to throw my
dad under the bus here because he's

definitely not not not an asshole
with dogs like he is, but he has the

idea of what should be and but and and
that's the thing he would never do.

like look for anything in in terms
of dog because he thinks he knows.

Barbara: Yeah, yeah, you're quite right.

So the quick fix, right?

I mean, I know that dog trainers
all over the world struggle with the

quick fix mentality in Perspective
clients or, you know, not even,

um, and I totally see that.

I mean, people want help.

Yes, but it's supposed to be really quick.

And most of them don't even
think that it's worth paying for.

Julia: So,

Barbara: um, you know, just tell me.

You know, give me some tips and
I'll fix it and, um, and, and

that's the majority for sure.

Julia: But I think that's something
that's common because, you know, we

work with people all over the world and
it's something that's common everywhere.

Anke: So tell me a bit more about, uh,
the programs you offer and the courses

and the stuff that you've got going on.

That's a very

Julia: interesting question, Anke, because
we're just working on a restructure

and a relaunch of some of our core
courses, which we are very excited about.

So it's actually a really cool time
to, to kind of join with us really,

because that's all going to be new
and shiny and exciting and stuff.

So, Anke.

And hopefully, you know,

Barbara: being able to help
more people and more dogs.

And yeah, because we, we, um, it's
sort of on the, after the festival, we

launched, um, our flagship program and
the reactivity reboot, which was, Or

which is like a really comprehensive,
long ish, 12 week program, you know,

looking at reactivity from all angles.

And we had massive, we've done
versions of this before, so we have,

you know, massive success with it,
with the people that joined it.

But we also, Realized that it, it was a
big, a big step for people to take, right?

Yeah.

Time commitment, financial commitment.

It's a big program.

Not everybody wanted everything
that we were offering.

People's always, you know, we would,
we would hear, Oh, I would love to do

this, but I just can't do it right now.

So then we really, um, I went back to the
drawing board to think how can we, how

can we do this and open it up for more
people and it was, that was one of the

areas where we really had to have a lot of
conversations, Julia and I, because I was

very much set against doing anything that
didn't involve a huge amount of support.

So we, you know, we teach a
lot via Zoom and the community

element is really important.

We really love that, both of
us, but we also realized that

not everybody wants that.

You know, there is a large number
of owners who really just want to

get the information and work with
the information and their dog.

And then if they get stuck, maybe
reach out for additional support.

And that meant rethinking
how we're offering.

Our program, isn't it, Julia?

Absolutely.

How is it

Anke: different now?

Julia: We've chunked it.

So the online element is I was going
to say it has been but that's not true.

It is being at the moment
while we're recording this

Barbara: we're getting there.

Julia: It's been chunked into pieces.

The elements are from the reactivity
reboot, plus some extra bits

that we're putting in as well.

Um, we're splitting down
into sort of modules.

We're sort of, it's like
a modular sort of thing.

So there'll be a foundation,
um, essentials, starting point,

which, you know, if you have
a reactive dog, regardless, is

going to be brilliant for you.

And then we start focusing
in on other different things.

Barbara: Yeah.

Julia: So

Barbara: the essentials bit, I mean, a
lot of people just with those lessons

will have a huge amount of relief.

And absolutely some dogs, that's
all you have to do, right?

Give them a reset, put in some
strategic manage management.

Check for health issues, you know,
and learn to really observe your dog

and be able to, um, understand their
body language so that you can step

in when they need support, right?

And for a lot of dogs that's
all, that's all you need, right?

And then, but then we want to
you know, Also help the people

that have very specific problems.

So if somebody has leash reactivity,
for example, you know, then we

have a whole module that is just
honing in on that challenge.

Or reactivity within the home.

So what

Anke: are the different, the most
common, I mean, I hear reactivity

and I'm thinking of my dogs kind
of, you know, on a walk, like other

dogs, you know, that's my go to.

I know that there's different types.

What, in your experience, are the most
common ways, the way this shows up?

Barbara: That is
definitely the most common.

That's on it, wouldn't you say?

Yeah.

Yeah.

We did, uh, we did a couple of
polls and that was definitely

the number one challenge.

But, You see, the thing is, you don't
necessarily address it on a walk,

Julia: right?

Barbara: That's the whole thing
with, with reactivity, that you don't

fix the problem when it comes up.

You have to work away from the problem.

You have to, like, extract the,
um, all the elements and then

very gently, layer by layer, you
know, work on it away from that.

And very often, you,
you, that's all it Right.

And, uh, and then the other
forms of reactivity that

people come to us with or for.

Might be in the house, you know, excessive
biking in the house, or when the mailman

comes, or the UPS truck, the I can't
have people come over, my dog turns

into a maniac, um, that sort of thing.

Or it just drives me nuts, I can't think
clearly ever, because any little noise

outside my dog bikes, that sort of thing.

Um I think those would
be the two big ones.

What do you think, Julia?

Julia: Yeah, definitely.

And we also have people, you know, who
have issues when they have multiple dogs.

Oh, yeah.

And issues within the
home to do with them.

So that'll be another
thing that we'll put on.

But the other part of the program that
we're going to have as a bolt on will be

a course all to do with, um, the person,
the human, how they can manage how they

feel, um, giving them some real practical
strategies, um, because we, we know, don't

we, we know the In theory, how we feel
is going to impact our dogs, of course,

but it's all well and good saying that.

But it's much more difficult to
actually, you know, you can't just wave

a magic wand and change how you feel.

So that's something that we
thought was absolutely crucial.

And then the the the other part of the
whole bit package that people can opt into

is a bit more of a membership and that's
where they're going to be able to come on

to Zooms with us and get the support in
the community and all that kind of stuff.

So that will still be available as well.

Um, so yeah, that's what we've decided.

Anke: Because I think that makes
a lot of sense because there's

always in the end, you know, yes,
the information is one piece.

But then, you know, like
I see it all the time.

It's like, yep, you can have all
the information you want, but

unless you actually implement it,
that's when the questions come

up and like, what about this?

And what about that?

Like, can it all make sense if you
watch a video, you know, or you

read through some stuff until you
actually try and do something with it.

You know, I think there's always that.

Julia: And the great thing when people
actually are in, you know, this is one

of the reasons we've always enjoyed
doing, um, courses where there is that

interactive element is because you get
to know the people, you get to know their

dogs, you get to know the patterns, um,
so you can really dig into that behavior.

Um, so there's a huge amount of
value to be got from that as well.

Yeah, I love that.

Barbara: Yeah.

And I, and I just, uh, what we're hoping
is that we can, um, Help more people like

that, you know, because not everybody
needs everything and not everybody

knows yet what it is that they need.

So they can just start with a
bit, you know, try that out.

Ooh, this is great.

You know, now I want to, you
know, focus on another aspect.

And if they, You know, and if
somebody feels, oh gosh, I need more

support, then they can, as Julia
says, you know, you can, anytime you

can join our membership and join the
community and meet other, other people

that have very similar challenges.

And that is really the big part
when it comes to overcome, you know,

how many people feel guilty because
of their dog's behavior for, yeah.

Anke: And everybody always thinks it's
just me, you know, everybody always

like everybody else is the same.

When got this sorted out, I ran
a project, a program once, like

not for dogs, a different thing.

But, but I remember when I did feedback
calls and I had a lot of live kind

of, you know, co working calls, I
come get it done, ask your staff.

And the feedback I got was literally
that people said, Oh my God, it was

such a relief to hear other people ask
stupid questions, like stupid questions.

Peace.

You know, I thought it was just me.

I thought everybody else
had this figured out.

I thought I was the only one who was
like overwhelmed and didn't kind of

find, find out how it all fit together.

It's that be not being
alone with something.

I think that's, that's big.

Yeah, totally.

Barbara: Yeah, that's huge.

We hear that time and again.

Absolutely.

Anke: So where can people go and connect
with you, find out about the new program,

the one you've got, the community
and, you know, and even the festival

though, because that was excellent.

So definitely go check that
out if you haven't seen it yet.

Julia: So to access the festival, um,
and you know, any of our paid courses

as well, um, it's a bit of a mouthful.

You go to www.

Anke: barking

Julia: festival.

org.

Up

the-write-tree.com

and he said dash again.

So that's the website and you
can get onto, as I say, you can

get onto the festival there.

Um, and if you sign up for the,
first of all, you'll be given sent

links so that you can get onto the
Facebook group and stuff as well.

Um, you can go on to fest.

What's the word?

To Facebook as well.

Um, and if you just search on Facebook
for Barking Up The Right Tree Reactive

Dog Training Community That'll be us.

Just, just request to be, to be let in.

Now the great thing on the Facebook
group, as well as the fact that it

is probably the most supportive dog
training group I've ever been in

I've been a member of Nevermind Run.

We've got some awesome members.

Um, but we also, we do a weekly
Facebook live where we tackle

various, you know, specific topics.

Um, but we also answer people's
questions as well during the lives.

So, um, so people can get a little
bit of support that way as well.

Um, and there's, there's loads
of training tips in there.

Um, you know, you get weekly
training tips, uh, share a little

bit about us and our journeys with
our dogs, um, and that kind of thing.

So, yeah, awesome.

Awesome.

Well, we're obviously

Anke: going to pop the, you don't
have to remember all of that.

We're going to pop the link and it's
like wherever you're watching below

the video in the show notes, if
you're listening to the podcast, so

it's not going to be hard to find.

So thank you so much.

This was.

Fabulous.

And, um, yeah, like let's help a
whole bunch of people with, with

reactive dogs, because everybody
deserves better than that.

Absolutely.

Barbara: The more people we can
help, the happier we will become.

Oh, the merrier.

Yep.

Thank you so much Anke.

It's been a real, real fun.

Thank you.

Yes.

Thanks Anke.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.