Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Cathy: Okay.

I

Anke: always love it when
we start off with a giggle.

So hello and welcome Cathy, I'm
super excited to have you here.

Cathy: I think we should just sit
here and laugh for the next 15

minutes and give people some joy.

We could.

We probably could.

Oh, so much Anke for having me here
today, uh, for this conversation.

I'm excited.

I'm excited to see where this gets to go.

Yeah,

Anke: exactly.

That's always the good thing when
it isn't, you know, when there's all

the possibility in the air, right?

So I really like it.

Um, okay, let's just start.

And Why don't you tell people where, where
on earth, literally, you are and um, you

know, what's your connection to dogs?

Cathy: Well, in the latitude
longitudinal sense of things, I am,

uh, most broadly, well, I'm on planet
earth, which we'll start there.

I am, I am on the landmass known as
North America in the portion called

the United States, more specifically
in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

So it's, uh, in between Charles, uh,
Charlottesville and Richmond for those

who are listening, who may be geography
nuts and want to, want to find that.

Um, as far as dogs are concerned,
um, they're my earliest memory.

Um, literally my, or one of my.

Earliest memories, which my mother
thought was impossible for me to

have, but it is a memory from infancy.

It's a memory from my nursery
and it's a memory of our dog.

His name was Pepper.

He was a mixed breed
of some undeterminate.

origin.

I'm guessing there was probably
beagle, probably lab, probably pit,

probably some random sort of retriever.

He was a roughly 40 pound or so
brown dog with black spots and white

spots and gray spots and floppy
ears that were kind of cockeyed and

a pointy nose and a whippy tail.

He was kind of ridiculous.

Like somebody took parts from various
dogs and just kind of glued them together,

but he'd sleep under my crib and, um,
he would rouse himself when I was awake.

And we would stare at each other through
the slats of the crib and he'd lick

my hands and nuzzle me and I'd pull up
on my elbows and um, I only cried if

my diaper was dirty or I was hungry.

Which, if you think about it, were the two
things that he couldn't resolve for me.

So, my mom said she would often
look into the nursery because I was

so quiet for extended periods she
wanted to make sure I wasn't dead.

And um, and so she'd glance into
the nursery and uh, she would see

us just staring at each other.

Just staring at each other through
the slats of the crib or me giggling

and grabbing his nose like we were,
you know, deep in conversation.

And um, he was hit by a car in front
of our house when I was four or

five years old, deeply traumatic.

Um, I didn't see him and I didn't, I
didn't see him hit by a car, but I can

describe to you in meticulous detail
the office at the, the veterinarian's

office, the room they brought us into
where they had attempted to save him.

They had just cleaned it.

And so I can, in acute detail,
describe the smell of the room,

the angle of the light in the room.

It was fall, so it had kind of the,
the sun had that kind of faded.

sunlight and it was coming in at a weird
angle through the window and they had the

cabinets like the old apothecary cabinets.

It was an old veterinarian's
office and the stainless steel

table had just been cleaned.

And so the light was
refracting off of that.

And so oddly there were rainbows
all over the room, which of course

now I understand as an adult.

You know, well, I understand also, you
know, light refracting through things

creates rainbows, but I also know now
that it was likely the rainbow, kind of

the rainbow bridge, him, him in the room.

Because I could feel him.

I could still feel him in the
room, even though he was gone.

And that was confusing to me.

And, uh, and I said, where is he?

Where is he?

And they kept telling me he was gone.

And I kept saying, no, he's, he's here.

And as an adult, you know, I, I came
to work with dogs as a professional.

Um, About 12 years ago, formally,
formally, I had been working with

dogs in some capacity as a, what
I would call a hobbyist trainer.

Uh, no certifications, no, no license.

Don't come after me.

I have one now.

Um, you know, and, but just, Um, I, I
got my own first, it was years before

I would have a dog that was my dog.

We had another family dog who came
into the family when I was about

nine, but he was never really, mine.

He, he really, um, I don't think he really
belonged to anybody except maybe my dad.

Um, but he was definitely a companion.

And when I was in my early twenties
in California, I got my own dog and

I did all the research and I figured
out what kind of dog I wanted.

And, you know, I got the
puppy and I raised the puppy.

And it was then when I, I hired a trainer
because I knew that I didn't know.

I knew the life I wanted with my dog.

And I, and I didn't know how to get that.

And I found a guy one day, he was in
the park, he had a beautiful German

Shepherd, and it was like watching ballet.

I mean, it was really, it was the
most organic, connected relationship

I had ever seen between two
beings, period, of any species.

And it was like one breathed out, the
other breathed in, and vice versa.

And they just, they moved
almost like one unit.

So I walked up to him and I said,
So how did you learn to do that?

And he said, I'm a dog trainer.

And I said, can, can you teach me?

Because I'm, you know, I have a puppy
and he said, how old's your puppy?

I said, well, actually the puppy's going
to be born in a couple of weeks and I

get him and the guy looked, he's like,
wait, you don't even have the dog yet?

Like, no, but I know that I don't know.

You know, I know enough
to know that I don't know.

And so.

Can you teach me?

And I think he, he told me later
that he thought I was just a crazy

person in the park, but he gave me
his number and said that when he heard

from me weeks later, he was shocked.

Um, because he thought for sure
that he'd never hear from me again.

And I worked with him and And we
worked together for, uh, we started

when Archie was, um, probably
about eight, nine weeks old.

He'd come to my apartment and
just teach me how to be with him

since I could, didn't want to risk
him in any, you know, public dog

parks or anything at that point.

And then he would have me bring him
to the tennis court in the dog park,

where we, he was exposed to sight and
sound, but not exposed to any dogs.

And we could see that the, the ground
was clean and could keep him safe.

And then we kind of worked up from
there, and after about a month

or so, um, he looked at me and he
said, you don't really need me.

I said, what do you mean?

He said, you're a natural.

You're really a natural.

And but I, why don't I, you know, it's
ridiculous for me to take money from

somebody who doesn't really need me.

I just.

I don't feel good about that.

Feel free to, you know, call
me anytime, ask me questions.

I'm happy to meet you here in the park
and we can work our dogs together.

And so we, I did that and it was about
a year and a half later and I was in

the park with Archie and I was just like
having him jump up on things and sit.

Like just, we were just horsing around
having a good time and someone come

up, came up to me and said, excuse me.

I said, yeah, yeah.

How can I help you?

They said, are you a dog trainer?

And I said, Why do you ask?

They said, well, I just got a puppy,
you know, and I just brought him home

yesterday and I don't know what I'm doing
and you're really great with your dog.

So I nodded my head and I
said, uh, yes, yes, I am.

I immediately called Mario.

I said, so I just told
someone I'm a dog trainer.

He's great.

I said, but I'm not.

He said, yes, you are.

I said, but I don't
have any certifications.

He said, Most people who have them, you
know, and I mean no disrespect, so let

me just say, if you're a CPDK or you
have any of the initials after your name,

good, like good, you've put it on yourself
to get education, but understand that

the certifications are not something to
wave around and say, I'm a dog trainer.

Um, they're helpful.

They're important.

Yes, get educated.

Yes, understand dog behavior.

Yes, understand dog wellness
and physicality and illnesses

and pests and things to 100%.

100%.

understand that there are a lot of people
out there who slap those letters after

their name who have no more business
working with a dog than I do running

a classroom of one year olds, right?

They just, and, and it's, it's It's
like that with a lot of things, right?

Like I, I have transitioned my life
into coaching humans now through the

lens of, of the dog human relationship.

And there's a lot of people calling
themselves coaches out there.

It's just thinking about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, they've got fancy, they've got
fancy certifications and they've got

ICF certifications and they went to
this school and that school and I, they

can't find their ass in a brightly lit
room with both hands and like their

own lives are a categorical shit show.

And it's like, okay, so without being
in judgment, which I realized all

that sounded super judgy, um, that
for me, I know more people who just

know their dog and they know their
dog because they know themselves.

That I can't expect behavior outside of
me to shift, change, adjust, or move if

I'm looking at it as an outside thing.

If I'm looking at it as everything in
the world around me, I am causing the

conditions in the world around me.

And a dog is the perfect mirror
for us to see how are we doing

at any given point in time.

So, I have my blur on.

You can't see the background.

Um.

If you're just listening to this,
you're not really missing much scene

wise because there's, you can't see
anything behind me, but there's three

dogs in the room right now, completely
crashed out, completely relaxed.

And all three pairs of eyes, I can
feel them on the back of my head.

They're just watching me.

And if I were to get up and
leave, you'd see movement in the

background because they'd follow me.

And it's the relationship
I have with them.

And there are mornings when it
isn't like this because I'm not.

like this.

And so, you know, I'll
fast forward through.

I worked in the Silicon Valley.

I worked in the tech industry.

Um, I've been in, in and around
communications the entirety of my career.

I have a big fancy journalism
degree from Northwestern University.

Um, so I'm really good at finding
typos on things and editing copy.

Really use, really useful
skills it turns out.

Um, also along with things like.

You know, critical thinking and
communicating and speaking in

sentences people understand.

And, and I, I walked away from
that about 12 years ago, mostly

because I never really particularly
liked the tech industry.

The grind of it was always hard for me.

Um, I never really felt like I fit.

I loved the people.

The people are amazing.

I have lasting friendships
and fascinating people.

And I got to be witness to a lot of
things again, no regret, all great,

but it never really felt like a fit.

And I got an opportunity in 2012, uh, Tony
Hsieh, who was then the CEO of Zappos, he

is now unfortunately since deceased, is
deceased, um, he invited me to Las Vegas

and he said come to Las Vegas and see
what we're doing to redevelop downtown.

And then he invited my dog,
Truman, to come with me.

So Truman and I went to Las Vegas
in the summer of 2012, uh, on

what was ostensibly a vacation.

I was there for 10 days.

And at the end of the 10 days, I had
committed to submit a business plan

for a new take on what a training
and educational facility for dogs

and their people could look like.

So it was called the Hydrant Club, and I
say was because I, I closed the physical

iteration of it at the end of 2022, um,
mostly because the neighborhood, which

had been made, made great progress for
development up until the pandemic, then

the pandemic happened, then Tony died,
and then after the pandemic what's come

back is, there's a mob of like 300, you
know, delinquents on bicycles who ride

around and vandalize, one of them actually
just Put someone in a hospital last week.

So there's a lot of vandalism and
crime and, you know, not a neighborhood

where you want to be running, you
know, a high end dog training facility.

Um, but I, so I closed the
physical location, but I opened

the phys, this physical location
without knowing a few things.

First of all, I had never run a
brick and mortar business before.

So there was that.

Second of all, um, I had worked
one on one with a client.

Right, you know, so working
individually with clients.

I had never done group classes.

I also had never taught other
people how to handle dogs.

And being a dog handler and being a
dog trainer aren't the same thing.

You know, so if I own a
dog, I am the dog's handler.

I should also be their educator and
be part of their educational process.

But there are a lot of people who,
like, the relationships are different.

It's like the, my parents
aren't my friends.

But I have a friendship with them as an
adult, but my parents are my parents.

I have a teacher.

I might be friendly with teachers.

Like there's just relationships that have
a certain quality to them in order for the

function of the relationship to happen.

Doesn't make them any less intimate.

Doesn't make them any less connected.

They just have a certain relationship.

And for a dog, I think the biggest
mistake we make is we create a scenario

for the dog that is impossible for
the dog to actually understand.

A dog is a dog, a human is a
human, they are not the same thing.

Are they loving companions?

Yes.

Are they beloved members of the family?

No question.

Do they understand us more deeply
than most other humans can?

100%.

They're not people.

They're not our fur babies.

They're not our fur kids.

They are not my children.

I jokingly refer to my dogs as my kids.

Like, hey kids, let's go inside.

But I'm very clear that there's
a, a relationship there that gets

to have a certain boundary to it.

in the way that you have a
relationship with a two year old

that's different than with a 10
year old, with a 12 year old, right?

With an adult child, right?

So the dog never really goes
beyond the toddler phase.

And so there's a way that
I get to be with them.

And so I didn't know if I could train
people and teach them to handle and

then to also train and teach others.

Turns out pretty good
teacher and coach, who knew?

And, um, It was, I wasn't so good at
first, it was very, very bossy, um,

very controlling, not particularly
pleasant to work for, um, not, I wasn't

particularly patient or tolerant with
some of my clients in the very early days.

Um, there were some Yelp reviews at
the time that reflected how I was being

for sure, um, and I can laugh at it now
as I've, you know, and some of those

tendencies are of course still there,
but I can laugh at them now and say, wow,

I'm being kind of an asshole right now.

So that must mean I'm, mean
I'm uncomfortable because I'm

typically a very kind person.

I'm a very loving.

You know, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm
wearing this fuzzy pink, like I'm

kind of like a teddy bear, really.

And when the prickly part comes out, it's
usually because I'm scared, uncomfortable,

or I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.

And I just revealed, I've just revealed,
I've just revealed my darkest secret.

So there goes all my mystery.

You know, and so what happened when the
pandemic hit was I started thinking,

all right, so I've got to get creative.

And besides the fact that over the last
seven years, I've really been spending

more time working through with the
humans, what's in their way of being their

best guardian for their dog, having the
best stewardship for their dog, which

is really what we're here for, right?

Like we get to put our needs
aside, put their needs first.

And in return We get the most, I mean,
there's just, I mean, I, and if, if

you're listening to this, you know, you
get it because you understand what to

have your soul touched by a dog or a
cat or a horse or a ferret or a guinea

pig or a rabbit or a bird or your child
or your plants like to be in loving

contribution to another thing that you
have such love and care for that you

care for it and put your needs aside.

And in so your needs get met.

Like, I don't know how it works.

I love

Anke: how you put that
because it is really true, you

Cathy: know, 100%, 100%.

And I don't get to love my dog the way.

I want to love my dog.

I get to love my dog how my dog, each of
my three dogs are very, very different.

They need very different things for me.

And when I love them for who they
are as individuals, my needs get met.

Not sure how, not sure why, but they do.

And so I, I pivoted a bit, uh, while
The 100 Club was still in, you know,

physical brick and mortar iteration, I
was spending more and more time coaching,

and I got myself, you know, a, I got
myself a certification, um, and no,

it's not one of the big fancy ones,
I didn't, you know, spend 15 grand to

have somebody say, yes, you can coach
other people, congratulations, um.

You know, when I got myself educated
and got myself trained and got

myself, you know, hundreds of
hours of experience coaching and,

um, started really figuring out.

So with everyone and their brother saying
they're a coach, how does that, how,

how do I really show my differentiation?

It really isn't three.

It's, it's the, the how I do it
and, and the lenses through which

I do it, which is really, I, I work
with in communication specifically.

So the language you use with yourself,
with other people, how do people hear you?

How do they experience you?

Um, how do you work in a group?

How does a group work together?

How do you deal with conflict?

So those.

Those are kind of my main, the main tools.

The lens for the interpersonal
communication and one on one is,

is 100 percent taught through the
lens of the dog human relationship.

The group dynamics, I do that through
the lens of music, specifically

orchestral music, because it's a great
example of how groups work together.

And my, my third metaphor, uh, for
conflict resolution and how to deal with

pressure and basically hold your shit
together when everyone around you is

losing theirs, and that's ice hockey.

Um, so I take these three completely
disparate lenses and kind of weave

them together in a way, and look,
you can use gardening metaphors,

architectural metaphors, other
sports metaphors, cooking metaphors.

They're all just a way for us to view,
um, to get out of our own way, to see,

to not take ourselves so seriously,
and, and to realize at the end of

the day, if there's conflict around
me, it's because there's something

in conflict in me, period, period.

Like, it is literally that simple.

If the world around me is effed up
six ways from Sunday, that's the one

profane word that I won't use here,
but it's, you know, six ways from

Sunday, um, all I have to do is figure
out what's What's awry in my own life?

You know, if there feels like disarray,
disorganization and confusion in the

world around me, I go clean a closet.

I don't know why it makes me feel better.

I don't know why my world
gets better, but it does.

Or I look in that stack of bills
I haven't paid, I pay them.

Or the car is filthy, I clean it.

Or the things I've been saying on, you
know, they're stacked on the desk that

I've been saying I'm going to file.

I file them.

The project sitting in the
corner that I've been looking.

Whatever it is that I've been
talking about doing, I do it.

And all of a sudden,
order starts to happen.

And when we look at the categorical
shitshow that is our planet right

now, and you can look in every aspect.

The environment, politics, I mean
I almost vomit saying the word,

and not a political conversation.

I think a lot of people would
be surprised where, where my

inclinations actually fall.

You know, most people think that
I'm one way and I'm actually

not the way they think I am.

Um, and.

Because I, because I sit right in
the middle and anyone who would

pull people off a center are doing
it for their own, for their own

means or from their own discomfort.

Again, it's really that simple because
the answer is when you sit down and

talk with people person to person.

We may disagree on how to get to
point B, but everybody kind of

agrees what point A and point B are.

Here's where we are.

This is shitty.

That's where we want to go.

That's better.

And then we start tearing each
other apart on trying to get there

instead of saying, okay, well,
we disagree on how to get there.

Can we each go our own ways
there and both get there?

Okay.

Okay.

We can't.

So we have to find a way for our two
ways to have some relative symbiosis.

Okay, well, let's figure that out.

Let's figure that out.

I think

Anke: the let's figure it out is a really
powerful approach to anything, right?

It's almost like, oh, the dog doesn't
do what I thought the dog should do.

How can we figure it out?

Right?

So it's anything is, I think, helped by

Cathy: that approach.

100%.

100%.

And I think that, um, you know, again,
you know, when, when I walk into people's

houses, um, you know, I don't do much, you
know, just dog training anymore, you know,

um, just because I'm doing other things,
not for lack of, of wanting to do it.

Um, you know, but for people who
have a dog who are also interested

in upping their own leadership, like,
because here's the when I become the

leader who I get to be in my life.

My dog's behavior writes itself.

Most of the really, most of the
irritating shit just goes away.

The jumping on me, the pulling things
apart, the not getting out of my way

when I'm walking down the hallway
or being up under my feet when I'm

in the kitchen or pulling me down
the sidewalk on the leash or running

out the front door when I open it.

Whatever the thing is, those are
all behaviors that are indicators

of a dog that doesn't see that
there is a a leader in its life.

And for all of these people who,
um, you know, are like, you know,

and again, there's so many different
methodologies, but even in the dog

training world, there's the, you know,
they're like, any force is bad with a dog.

I'm like, well, excessive force is
bad with any living being, right?

I don't know.

I'm pretty sure the mama dog
picks the puppies up by the

scruff of the neck with her teeth.

And that's pretty forceful.

That's pretty forceful.

And they understand it and they like
straighten their shit out pretty fast.

When Mama shows her teeth, you
know, and snaps her teeth at them,

oh, ma'am, yes, ma'am, they get it.

She doesn't then take her paw, backhand
him across the head, you know, charge

at them, tearing fur out of them and
slap them around and terrorize them.

But she sure as hell does, you
know, give them guidelines,

you know, and I think there's

Anke: also this piece of like, being firm,
you know, doesn't have, that does not

mean being, like, punitive in any way.

Like, you don't, you
can be like my parents.

like was super strict, you know,
there was never a slap or anything,

you know, there was just a very calm
understanding that this is, well, you

Cathy: under, but you understood that the
potential was there, but you understood

you were now, I was never struck either.

And it had

Anke: consequences.

Like if I was, you know, so it's
like, it doesn't have to be, I

think there's this piece that it's
easy to misunderstand, like force.

And like, I think firm leadership, calm,
firm leadership, like the dog needs to

know and a child and a team member or
somebody like it's kind of a grown out,

Cathy: a grown ass adult.

Look at our world today.

Look at our world.

It's a mess.

Anke: You know, this is, this is what,
what we want you to, this is how to do it.

And if you don't do it, this
is what the consequences are.

And it's really quite simple.

I guess it doesn't have to be, it can
be kind, it can be, you know, calm.

It doesn't have to be like,
you know, so, but it has to

be consistent and it has to be

Cathy: firm.

Right.

And it has to be followed through.

And this is where, when I look at human
behavior, if There is no consequence

for something being I will never forget.

I, um, uh, I had a lot of
rules at the Hydrant Club.

The, the, the, the clients were under an
enormous amount of strict guidelines in

order to even come for their assessment.

And I could tell you with 100
percent certainty, every time the

people whose dogs were going to
fail, and about a third of them did.

And it wasn't always the dog.

It actually was rarely the dog.

It was mostly humans who couldn't
follow basic, simple rules, like showing

up to a place at a specific time.

And the reason it was important is
the dogs would arrive between 8 and 9.

45.

Well, 45, that's when the dogs
would arrive for day school.

And so they would arrive for day school,
and then I wanted, at minimum, a 15 minute

window to get the group settled before
a new dog would be introduced for its,

you know, process of introduction because
the group was settled and balanced.

I didn't want a frothy, excited,
unbalanced group because then the

new dog would have a bad experience
and the new, I wouldn't be able to

get a good sense of the new dog.

I could tell as the dog was walking up
the sidewalk from the car by how the

dogs, because I had an open fence and
all the dogs would come over and stand

at the fence, they would come over.

They would bark, and within
about eight seconds They'd stop.

I mean, the handlers would come
over, there would be, have handlers

in the space managing them.

But when the dogs didn't settle, it
told me everything I needed to know

about what was walking up the sidewalk.

Either the human or the dog was
imbalanced and I wasn't sure which.

So I would do things with the dog,
with their person there, I'd remove

the person, I'd work with the dog.

I'd just spend time with the dog.

I'd bring a dog in to meet the person.

I'd bring a dog in to meet the dog.

And I'd see where the reactivity was.

And I had someone who
showed up 30 minutes.

late for their scheduled appointment.

And we had another appointment
that was going to be coming.

And so what we would also do is we'd
finish the appointment and I would allow,

I would enforce at least 30 minutes,
ideally an hour, before another dog

would come because I wanted the dogs
to have a chance to decompress and

all of that and determine which of the
dogs needed to be pulled from the group

for deeper decompression because they
had been overstimulated or whatever.

And she was 30 minutes late and
she showed up and I said, hi.

I said, I'm really sorry, but we're, you
know, we're going to need to reschedule.

I rescheduled my day to be here.

And she started yelling.

I said, you know, um, we, here's
why I was very, very calm.

And I explained the situation.

I said, look, when your dog is
here, I want, you know, I want

your dog to have a good experience.

This won't be a good
experience for your dog.

And I'm not going to rush it because
your dog gets to have the full time.

And she's like, okay, well, fine.

You know, I'll reschedule.

I said, great.

I said, so, you know, we're going
to take the, the assessment payment

in advance to hold the spot.

Cause you missed the first, and
it's in all of the paperwork.

And it was 150.

150 to get your dog evaluated
to maybe get into my school.

Maybe.

Now, once the dog got in, they
got that money right back.

I'd give them 150 worth of something.

I'd give them, you know,
a free hour of training.

I'd give them something.

They immediately got that value back.

So they weren't really But if they were
like, you know, basically it was my PETA,

my PETA tax, my pain in the ass tax.

Yeah.

But I mean, it's

Anke: also, it kind of makes sure
that the people who come there are

like actually serious about it.

Cathy: You know?

The minute I started charging,
I didn't charge at first.

And the minute I started charging,
like my, my conversion rate went up

to about 88 percent and I started
turning away about a third of the dogs.

And that was consistent.

That was consistent for 10 years.

I could have made exponentially
more money if I had gone volume.

And I wasn't interested in that.

I think quality always

Anke: trumps quantity, right?

Cathy: Yeah, well, and you can do both.

You can do both.

It is possible to do both.

My facility was physically
set up for a specific size.

I never had more than 40 dogs during a
day, which is considered relatively small,

you know, boarding was about 30, you know,
so it was a, you know, I kept that way.

I didn't have to have as much staff cause
we had a one to six ratio, you know,

for dog to handler or handler, yeah.

Handler to dog one to six.

So, um, and sometimes it was more like it
could be one to six with three handlers

if they were all high drive big dogs.

Right?

So it really, we really
gauged that accordingly.

And by the way, people are the same way.

Not all people need the same things.

And not all people hear
things the same way.

I was talking with a client yesterday
and she was relating to me an experience

of this team that she's working with.

She's like, I've told them, I've
told them, I've told them, and

they're just not hearing me.

I said, so what I'm hearing you
say is they're not hearing you.

Because if you're saying the same
thing and you're just saying it

louder, it doesn't necessarily
mean that they're hearing it.

It tells me that they're not engaged
with what you're telling them.

They don't understand why it's important.

So they're not hearing you.

So we get to say it to
them a different way.

We get to ask different questions.

She was like, light bulb went off.

She said, great.

So we talked about that.

I said, great.

So go do these things.

And you know, here's, you know, what
are some questions that you can ask?

And she came up with some questions.

I said, great.

Those are awesome.

What else can you ask?

And she asked, you know,
came up with a gun.

I said, great.

I said, so go do that.

Come back to me in a week and let
me know if you're still having the

tone deafness, because at that point.

There's resistance.

There's something else going on.

And then there's something else going on.

But 9 times out of 10 it's
not actually resistance.

Most of the time people are
just like, I'm sorry, what?

Because

Anke: it's just not obvious
where the relevance is,

Cathy: right?

Yeah, I mean, people, most people,
most, and like by most, I mean like vast

majority of people are good, decent,
want to do a good job, want to belong

to a group, want to know that they, you
know, belong there, that they fit with

the group, that they contribute, that
they matter, um, that they have a role.

Most people want to be
liked in some capacity.

It means different, that means
different things to different people.

And that's kind of it
at the end of the day.

Anke: That's why I love it when you
think, well, we're the kind of, we

are different in many ways, you know,
between dogs and people, but like,

boy, there's so many things where we're
just the same, where it's actually

in essence, pretty simple, right?

Cathy: Well, I mean, look, I mean,
it's not a mistake that 56, 000

years ago, give or take a millennia,
the, our species came together.

And, you know, there's some
really fascinating discoveries

in the last just 15, 20 years.

that show just how much longer ago,
um, you know, it used to be thought

it was like 000 years ago that
dog and man started live together.

No, it was, you know, it was
tens of millennia prior to that.

And, um, and it was roughly around
the time that humans started,

uh, being able to manipulate fire
as well as projectile weapons.

And so roughly in that
timeframe is when our species.

came together.

And you know, there's all sorts
of lore, like, we kidnapped the

pups and raised them as our own.

No, like, there's no data
that actually proves that.

What's, what's more likely is we
had killed a large beast with our

projectile weapons that we had
cooked over the flame in the carcass.

You know, we didn't have Tupperware.

There was no Tupperware.

There was no walk in deep freeze,
you know, so we just basically

had the carcass hanging out.

you know, on the spit where it had been
cooked and that the wolves that were

large enough to have the self confidence,
you know, would draw near, um, you know,

and, and protect, you know, send up a
sound when they heard something, giving

us the chance to protect ourselves.

We'd literally throw them a bone
and look, positive reinforcement.

Look, see, there you go.

You know, and, and so yeah, we
keep going for ages and ages,

like days for days, I'm sure.

I think we, we

Anke: have another, another
conversation in here.

Cathy: 100%.

Anke: I think so for now, where,
where do we, where can people

go and find out about, you know,

Cathy: about me, you, and your

Anke: work, and where can I get in

Cathy: touch with you?

I strive for ubiquity, so if
you type Kathy Brooks into.

A given search engine, the likelihood
that the first couple pages are going to

be me is greater than zero, um, by a lot.

Um, I'm easily found on LinkedIn, which
is the beautiful place where you and

I got, got a chance to come together.

Um, I also, you can find me, Kathy Brooks
on, on Instagram, Unleashed Leadership.

LLC.

The LLC bit is important because someone
got to Unleashed Leadership before I did.

Um, that was my, that was my,
that was my scary dog growl.

Um, but, uh, yeah, so Unleashed
Leadership LLC, uh, and I'm actually

in the process of getting ready to,
you know, I do group coaching programs.

Everything's done virtually.

I do in person stuff as well.

I'll go in two companies or two
people, um, you know, for coaching,

but my group coaching programs,
um, you know, are, are all virtual

and I'm kicking one off in January.

So, um, look me up.

Happy to help.

Happy to support.

We can talk dogs.

We can talk communication.

Um, we can really talk about anything.

I can pretty much talk about anything
with anyone about, you know, at any time,

you know, it's kind of a superpower.

Anke: Awesome.

Love it.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for coming.

And, um, yeah, I look forward to the
next installment of this conversation.

Thanks so much for listening.

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