Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Debbie.

I'm absolutely delighted to have you here.

It was long overdue and
I'm glad we're here.

Debbie: No, I'm so excited to be
in any place where you are at.

Anke, you, you, you're just
a fabulous human being.

So

Anke: happy to be awesome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh, but well, today the spotlight's
on you, so let people know where

in this lovely world you are and
what's your business with dogs.

Debbie: So I'm in West Hartford,
Connecticut, in, in, um, the States.

And um, I am, my shirt says
certified canine life coach.

Um, and another life I used to
counsel humans and I was going

to become a human life coach.

And when I was going through that and
looking at my best options, I ended up

going to, um, a shelter to get a, a dog.

And instead I came home with
him and his litter mate because

I couldn't leave her behind.

And these dogs had, um, stuff,
you know, they were born to

a malnourished, stray mom.

Which you'll read in the future about more
in my book, but, but whenever that is.

Um, but I brought them home
and there were some big issues.

I hired a trainer and I was
appalled at what he suggested, and

I just started reading everything.

So instead of reading, you know.

Book club books.

I was getting this book, a book about
dogs and that book and some of the,

the books were horrible too, so it
took me a little while to find my way

to the good folks, the kind folks.

And then instead of becoming a life coach
for humans, I became a canine life coach.

So that's, that's my story,
um, my short version.

But I, you know, it's just so
interesting the things that you don't

notice until you, you start to notice.

And now I, I work, um.

With dogs who are fearful.

You know, lots of people call them
aggressive dogs, and of course, we who

know them know that they are just trying
to give themselves space and really

communicating the best that they can
with what they've got to work with.

And so I always tell people who
reach out to me, yes, I'm happy to

come, but my training is for you.

Hmm.

Your dog will have fun when I'm there,
but you need to know that I'm going to

share things with you that are going to
be big eye openers and help you to see

things in, in a really different way.

Anke: Hmm.

I love that.

Yeah.

It's interesting, like how, how, um, I
have a similar experience, you know, I

didn't, didn't go the same route, but I
had that same experience that when I got

my first dog, you know, from the street.

None of the staff that was
recommended to me made any sense.

Right.

You know, either was cruel or was
like, kind of felt stupid or just

simply didn't work, you know?

No

Debbie: cruel or so dumb.

Dumb.

Yes.

Anke: Yeah.

Yeah.

So when people hear canine coach,
because I, my first question

was, so who are you coaching?

I'm like, the dog will be human, you know?

Right.

So.

I mean, I guess the human is the
one who needs to understand stuff.

Right.

So what's the one, like if I was to
say like out of all the clients who

come to you, what's the one thing?

Oh boy, I wish they understood this.

Debbie: Well, yesterday I went to
see a client who had used another

trainer before, um, had a big
dog, over a hundred pound dog.

And, um, this dog was w
wearing a prong collar.

And I actually took a picture and
did a post about it last night.

I don't have it with me, but the
prong collar, when you take it and you

know it has like a little martingale
collar too, and you hold it up.

It's literally like
this, this much around.

And the prongs are sticking in.

So I put an Apple watch inside just to
give some depth perception, and you could

see that it's just in the dog's neck.

Oh, and you know, this
dog was five years old.

Sweet, sweet, wonderful dog.

She said that also people couldn't come
in the house and she couldn't believe

that him and I made friends so quickly.

But of course we know about
dog body language, right?

We know, oh, Sally, you okay?

We know, um, about good messages to
send our dogs instead of the people

who come in and wanna show who's boss.

That's never a good thing, and that's
what they had been experiencing.

So when we went through everything
and she saw the way he responded to

me, she started to cry and she said.

I feel so horrible that he's
my baby and I've been doing

this to him for five years.

So I hugged her and I told
her, it's not your fault.

You were given poor advice by
someone who I'm guessing, really knew

nothing about dog behavior, you know?

Um, but for me, when I
have cases like that.

When I leave, I ask if they'll give
me the prong color or the shot color.

And you know, one person said to
me, well, you know, it is expensive.

I should just donate it.

And I said, oh, talk
through the same torture.

And her, you know, she said,
oh my gosh, you're right.

That's.

You know, so terrible.

So yesterday she said, I'm
so happy to give it to you.

And she went and she got it and I said, it
makes me so happy to be able to take this.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, and I think so I.

Is this my long answer to your question?

You know, I think the most important
thing was that what you asked,

what's the most important thing?

Or what do I want people to know?

Well, what do you,

Anke: you know, what do you,
what did you wish people knew?

You know, I

Debbie: want people to know
that kindness always wins.

That there's never, ever, ever a good
reason to do something to another

creature that doesn't feel right to you.

And if it's pain and it's intimidation,
it shouldn't feel right to you.

Right?

Yeah, we, we've come so far.

Sometimes we think in this world, I don't
know what's going on these days, but

you know, um, you know, we used to do
things like bear baiting, um, the zoos.

Many zoos are still horrible places and
we want the animals to have their freedom.

But so many certified zoos have done
deep dives into what's natural for

the animals who, who live there.

And we all.

Who love dogs should be
doing the same thing.

You know?

You don't want a dog that's a slave,
I said to do this, dah, dah, dah.

You know?

And if not, you're going to pay the price.

Who wants that?

It's so upsetting.

Um, when people call me and they say,
you know, I really want you to come

and I want, I want a strict heel.

I tell 'em, well, I don't do that.

You know?

Then you take all the joy
out of the walk for the dog.

So I don't do that, but I'm happy
to come and share other things with

you, which I hope will help you not
to want that strict heel anymore.

Anke: You know, that's interesting because
you know what, what strikes me is, is.

So if you are specializing, you
kind of deal with fearful aggressive

dogs, you probably get an above
average number of people who've

tried stuff like that, you know?

Yes.

Because if somebody has say, I don't know.

I've had people on the show who
kind of specialize in, let's

say, separation anxiety, right?

Yeah.

So now they never talk about
shock collars and stuff like

that, you know, because Right.

There's only, like, the alternative
is often to pop the dog in a crate

and or, you know, or leave them to
cry it out and then deal with the

scratch door, whatever, you know?

So, but they don't, but I think.

People who have a dog who, especially I
have a, you know, a hundred pound dog.

Yeah.

And so it's like you kind of.

Are careful to make sure a big dog
like that doesn't go crazy, you know?

So, because like right, purely for the
size, you know, if people, if she was to

come, my mom is like five foot tall, like
so now and she's 85 years old, I'm five

wants, you know, like she looks like 65.

But, but you know, if, if that big
dog who weighs more than her, like,

you know, you kind of like make sense
to make sure that she's a chill dog.

But I'm.

You know, so I can see how
there would be a lot of advice.

Well, but you have to
control her and, and Exactly.

You know, so, but I've seen it with this
one where, you know, it was like, well.

I would not let anybody, you know,
yell at her or do stupid shit.

And she's the kindest, she's two
years old now, two and a half.

She is the kindest
goofball you'll ever meet.

Beautiful.

You know, so it's like, 'cause

Debbie: all she's received is love.

So she trusts and she's,
you know, she's relaxed.

Um, this lady told me that
the trainer said to her, this

is, you need to use this.

For, for the welfare of your dog.

Anke: Yeah.

Debbie: So I just found that so ironic
that, you know, for the welfare of the

dog, so what to keep the dog safe to,
but, but so the dog for the welfare of

the dog, the dog should live a life of
pain with these horrible things pressing

on the trachea and the, and the thyroid
gland and the esophagus, you know.

Um.

It's just, it's just so sad.

And where I live, I do see a lot of
people walking around with shot collars

and brawn collars, and literally,
it, I make eye contact with the

dogs and I feel like they're saying,
can you, can you please help me?

And it breaks my heart.

Hmm.

Makes me crazy.

Anke: Yeah.

And, and I guess you, you
would need openness from the

owner to because of that.

If they're convinced that like, you
know, and like, I think it's this.

Catch 22.

It's this kind of vicious cycle.

You know, the more they throttle the dog,
the more anxious, the more tense the dog

will be, the more they think they need it.

Right?

So it's almost like you need somebody
willing to say, well, hey, let's, it

doesn't matter how fast you run, if you're
running in the wrong direction, let's

just stop here and see whether, you know,

Debbie: turned it around.

Um, I testify in, in court sometimes
for dogs who have been, um.

Abused with this kind of thing.

And there was one dog, the trainer came
over quickly, put two prong collars

on the dog and jerked back, and the
dog took a chunk out of his arm.

So the um, right, so the police came out
and they wanted to euthanize the dog.

But in court, I said, if a stranger
walked into our house and did something

like that to us, I would bite them.

Right.

I mean, you're just, oh my
gosh, what's happening here?

I'm trying to defend
myself the best that I can.

So I always feel like dogs are
held to these ridiculous standards

that we as humans would fail
at ourselves over and over.

And it's just so unfair.

And people, when they hire someone,
they really have to be so careful about

who they're inviting into their home.

Yeah.

And some of the things that that.

Trainers say that I've heard,
um, from my clients just really

blow me out of the water.

Like, like some things are just made up
and they're horrendous and it's crazy.

It's crazy.

Anke: Yeah.

It's, I don't know.

It's like, so what?

Like how do you Actually that
reminds me, I had a conversation

with somebody once and she was.

I think she just sort of finished.

Like a dog training
qualification, you know?

And she'd been told by people in
her town where she lives, like,

no girl, that ain't gonna work.

You know?

Because she said, well, there's, all
the trainers here are balanced trainers.

Right?

And they weren't gonna.

Accept her.

Right.

And I'm like, well, at least you could
teach, you can speak to all the women

who go don't wanna go to these blogs.

Right, right, right.

Do you think it's a gender thing?

I mean, I've had men on the show
who've, who are totally kindness

first, so I'm not saying right,

Debbie: right know, but there's

Anke: a lot of, there seems
to be a bit of a deloit, very,

Debbie: very kind men.

But there are, I can tell you just in my
area, um, there are many, many more men.

Who teach that you have to
be a force with your dog.

Than women.

Hmm.

Anke: Because it often feels
to me like men look for control

and women look for connection.

Debbie: Right, right.

You knows are different species.

And I think you're right.

I think there is something there.

And luckily we have the men who are, yeah.

Are not like that.

And, and then we have some
women that are unfortunately,

um, looking for that obedience.

You know, I don't even like the word,

Anke: I don't like it either.

No, I, it's like you would want
it for your children, right?

Debbie: You would not.

And you know, when I, again, when I
go to a home and someone will say,

well, you know, I've been working on
the, the come command, and the first

thing I always say is, you know.

How about we talk about a recall queue?

Mm-hmm.

And doesn't that sound
so much better because.

Nobody wants to be bossed
around, ordered around.

You know, we want a relationship,
we want a loving and caring

relationship, and, and truly nobody
can move forward in a relationship

unless there's trust and love.

You know, we, we just can't.

People who say, well, look at my dog is
so obedient and, and perfect in every

situation, but when I look at this dog
and the head's low and the tail's low.

And, and the eyes are dull.

It, it breaks my heart.

Anke: Yeah.

And when the, I mean, I remember seeing
one in, in Granada where I used to

live this guy, like, well, he basically
took a dog trainer course and it

was literally, you know, dog whisper
mini me kind of Spanish versions.

Yes.

You know, and so you could
tell, I mean, you just like

hear the, and kicks like, yeah.

You kind of know where
they're going, you know?

And he adopted a.

You know, traumatized.

Like the poor dog was like, you know,
and he would not, he says, oh, he's

really, he does really, he gets really
anxious when there's like a lot of people.

Then he says, oh yeah, I trained that out.

Like, yep, that's sorted.

He basically went where there was like
a, um, you know, Easter procession

where there's like people on people,
like he basically flooded that dog.

He went there and took him, and then
initially he was like, whatever.

And then he, you could see like, I saw him
afterwards and he was literally like, he

just given up on life, you know, and he
would look how nice and calm he is, right?

And it's like, makes me
want to, yeah, it's like.

Debbie: Uh, I took, um, my applied
animal behavior classes through, um,

it's University of Washington, and my
professors were just like, amazing.

It was, it was just amazing.

But one of my classmates is a
fabulous lady who works with Cane

Corso, and she said that never
ever, ever would she use any.

Thing that was intimidating or painful.

But you know, since she works with those
dogs, she sees that all the time that,

um, it seems to be so many people feel
like the bigger the dog, the more you

have to enforce who's large and in charge.

And it, it doesn't matter the
size, it doesn't matter the breed.

Dogs are so social, and we
are, and everybody's just

looking for that connection.

Yeah.

There's trying to get so cute.

Get himself famous.

Anke: Very cute.

Have you got an example, um, where
somebody came to you kind of starting

out sort of argue, like, you know,
have you seen people change their mind?

Debbie: Oh, yes.

Yeah.

I, I, I mean, I've cried with people, um.

I feel like many people use
these balance trainers and then

it's, it's not working, you know?

Um, some people, they say their dog's
aggressive, which, you know, I, I

don't even really like that word, but
I know people use it, um, to explain

what's going on sometimes, but.

So they call in this person who has
them shocking and jerking, a prong

collar, and things are getting worse.

So we have one or the other.

We have either the dog that gives up and
shuts down and says, this is just my life.

There's nothing I can do
or say when I'm saying I'm

uncomfortable, nobody's listening.

Or there's the dog that says.

What in the world I, this is not okay.

You other dog cause me pain.

You little boy cause me pain and these
dogs I have to get you before you get me.

Right?

It's, it's terrible, but it makes sense.

You understand it.

So then these people will call me
and say, you know, I heard about you.

I worked with this person who told
me to do this, this, and this, but it

seems as though it's getting worse.

And I say.

Of course it is.

And I'm sorry, but we're gonna have
fight or flight here and I'll explain

it all to you and then I explain it all.

And you know, again, many times people
are, are just crying and I hug them

and I cry too because I, it, I feel
so bad about what the dog has endured,

you know, in the name of training
and I really have to believe that.

People, you know, you wouldn't, you
wouldn't hire the doctor that doesn't

take his boards every two years.

Why is that?

Because things change, right?

If you're still cutting off people's legs
because you didn't know that penicillin

was invented, which stops an infection,

well, I don't wanna hire you.

Right?

Yeah, for sure.

So there's these trainers that
are pushing things that once.

Was thought to be the only way.

You know, even like when the clickers
came out, um, it was one of the

first times where people said, oh,
you can, you can work with a dog

in a way that's not hurting them
or, or doing anything negative.

I like to just use the word yes because
I like that personal connection and I

want the dog to hear that I'm happy.

You know, um, but, but
it's all about connection.

It's all about relationship, and
that's gotta be the most important

thing to be able to have the
companion that you want, because I.

You want a dog that you can bring places.

Yeah.

But the dog to go places has
to feel safe with you and, and

then there's some dogs like him.

He's just never gonna be
comfortable going places.

And that's okay.

Could I put a shot collar on him and say,
you better go here or other, you know?

Sure.

But how horrible would that be?

So he trusts me.

Huh.

And, um, you know, he, his world
is small, but it's, it's wonderful.

It's wonderful.

And then I have my other girl, she's
somewhere, I don't know where she went.

And she loves to say hi to everybody.

So you have to look at
the dog in front of you.

Yeah.

You know, and do what's right for the dog.

You can't fix a dog into,
to make them into someone.

They're not.

Right.

Yeah.

Some of us are introverts, some of
us are extroverts, and you know, if

um, my husband doesn't wanna I go to
the party down the street, well then

I'm gonna say, okay babe, I'll go
down and I'll be back in a few hours.

'cause he's more of a introvert.

Anke: Yeah.

I mean, it makes, it makes so much
sense and I think it's this letting

go of looking at the dog like a.

A toy or a tool or you know, like it's, I
mean, that's like, in Spain it's really,

oh, you know, really it's this traditional
like, oh, the dog needs to serve.

Like it's, it's for protection or it's
a toy for the kids and you know, so it's

that the dog needs, like buy a plush toy.

Right.

You know, just because if you look
at the dog as another soul, you

know, another, another being who.

Who is more comfortable wanting, and
there you are, another who has trauma

and whatever and has their life and
is just looking for that connection.

Like, you will never do
this, these things, you know?

But if you think it's like, oh, well,
you know, he's gotten too big now and

whatever, or like he's not, I don't know.

There's.

You hear them when it's like, well,
yeah, but if I'm police, oh, I've seen

here, I've seen police dogs, right?

When like the, the explosion detective,
like dogs kind of, so I know somebody

who's like working with that.

So he's a handler, you know, and I'm like,
don't really know anything about like,

so they basically are okay here the dog
comes trained and then they go out and

if somebody comes or there's a, there's
a concert, so they go and make sure

there's no explosive somewhere, right?

I saw where these dogs live.

In the meantime, it's horrific, horrible,
like in these kind of concrete cells.

Oh, you know, hysterical in there.

Dark, no window.

It's literally, and I think they
actually do that on purpose.

It's like sort of, um, to almost create
like Stockholm Syndrome, you know?

So it's like, that's why they like to
work, because it's the only time they

get out of their shit hole, you know?

And oh.

And the handlers are told they mustn't
be too nice to these dogs because

then they wouldn't be good at working.

They be tough.

Wouldn't, like, they, they won't do
their work if they're too kind of, if

you have too much of a, you know, like
you're not allowed to be nice to the

dog and it's just like literally they
treat them like an old tool that you kind

of don't bother to, to, you know what

Debbie: it's, yeah.

It's, it's slavery.

Anke: Yeah, totally.

Right.

Totally, totally.

It was horrific.

I never imagined that, that, that
like professionals, that they

would treat the dogs like that.

It's like Jesus, and when see it,

Debbie: you can't go back and
it really hurts your heart.

Anke: Yeah.

And you think, well, and then,
then you, you, you expect them

to save your butt, you know?

It's

Debbie: like, yeah, I know.

Anke: Yeah,

Debbie: I know.

It's,

Anke: um, so tell me, tell me about
the book that's coming up, because,

you know, I know I'm gonna have
your back when the book's out.

So give us a little bit of a, of
a hint of where this is going.

Debbie: That I've been working on
it for a long time here and there,

and I don't know why, just haven't,
you know, put it all together.

But it's basically this story of, um.

How I do things with, with people that
I meet in the world and their dogs.

But it's also the story
of Zi and his sister.

Um, and I had mentioned to you
in another conversation that they

were born to a stray mom who was
emaciated and, um, very skittish and.

Him and his sister were a third of
the size of the other pups, and their

immune system had turned on itself in
utero because they were so malnourished.

Wow.

So unfortunately we lost her at age six
because her liver shut down and his liver

isn't great, but it's better than hers.

Um, so he's still here at 10 and a half?

Yeah, he is.

And know he knows how to look
pretty in the background.

He knows how to look pretty.

He's very handsome, isn't he?

He loves to.

He's very

Anke: adorable, handsome.

Very cute.

Debbie: So he's a he's my good boy.

Yeah.

Anke: Oh, so where can people,
uh, go and find out about you,

connect with you, get more of you?

Debbie: You can find me on, on my website,
which is Debbie's the number four dogs.

I'm also on Facebook.

You can find me, uh, in the
Phoenix Advocacy Center.

You can find me in the
Pet Professional Guild.

Um, you can find me a lot of places where
they care about the welfare of dogs.

I love that.

Anke: Yeah.

Well thank you so much.

Thank you so much, much.

You have such a calming,
such a calm, lovely presence.

I just really

Debbie: love hanging out with

Anke: you.

Appreciate.

Debbie: Well, but we'll
hang out more after this.

Absolutely.

Good luck everybody.

See you later

Anke: guys.

So

Debbie: thanks so

Anke: much.

Debbie: Thanks so much too, LA Bye-Bye.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.