Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm Uncle Herrmann and I'm your host.

I talk to wholesome humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome Dr.

Holly.

I'm super excited to have you here.

Holly: Thank you so much for inviting me.

I really appreciate it.

Anke: Well, I'm very much looking
forward to chatting to you

because it feels, you know, it's
one of those funny ones because.

I've attended your summit, so I've seen
a lot more you than you have of me.

So that's quite, and uh, so let's
fill people in, let people know

where, where you're based and
you know, what's your business.

Holly: So I'm based in London, in the uk.

Um, but I work with people
all around the world.

I'm really lucky to be able to connect
with people in loads of different places.

And I have a bit of a hybrid business.

Um, so I'm a clinical psychologist
and I kind of did that first.

So I, um, I work with just a small
number of people therapeutically, but

exclusively only people that have dogs.

So that's a little specialist
thing that I do there.

Um, and then I also support dog guardians.

With their dogs, but with that human lens.

So it's not just about how do we
work with the dog, but actually

how is the human feeling?

What's that connection there?

How can we help everyone to
feel a little bit better in a

kind of trauma informed way?

And then just lastly, I work
with dog professionals as well.

So supporting them to grow their
businesses in a way that feels

ethical, not kind of nasty and salesy.

So I do a whole spectrum
of different things.

Um, yeah, very busy.

Why kind of go.

Anke: So, so I, I think it's totally
fascinating to kind of like, okay.

You know, like it makes sense that on
that emotional level dogs and people

that it's sort of very intertwined.

You know, we kind of, it's like, yeah.

You know how dogs can smell
when you, when you're scared.

Yeah.

So they can hook into all kinds
of, of, so what was sort of

the trigger point for you two?

Like, so you did your psychology,
you worked with people, like how

did the dogs come into all that?

Holly: It's the age old story of my
own dog who was struggling with life.

Bless his heart, he was
a real accidental puppy.

So it was a case of I was
working in an inpatient ward

at the time, my colleague had.

For whatever reason, we won't judge him.

Brought a puppy home and, um, the dog had
initially come from an abusive situation.

He quote unquote, saved him,
brought him home, and then proceeded

to go work a 15 hour shift.

And this poor puppy was of course,
developed horrendous separation anxiety.

And the landlord said, you've got
48 hours after about a week two.

Essentially get rid of the dog.

So I said, sure, I'll look after him for a
few days until we can figure out a rescue.

And then he never left.

Um, and he's still here to this day,
but Riggs had, um, so many difficulties.

Bless him.

He was really traumatized, super
environmentally sensitive or

reactive as it's often called
to dogs, to people, to sounds.

Terrible separation anxiety.

He was self-harming.

So much going on.

And initially I obviously sought help from
professionals, um, trainers, behaviorists,

online, all of that kind of thing.

And nothing was really working and
I was getting seriously stressed

out and anxious about his behavior.

He was really struggling.

And the, the connection just wasn't there.

Like, I loved him, but we didn't,
we weren't finding a way through it.

And then it was literally like one day
someone turned on a light bulb over my

head and I thought, hang on a second.

Why don't I take the trauma informed
knowledge that I have from working with

people and apply it to this situation,
not just to my dog, but also to myself.

And that's kind of where it all
started and it went from there really.

Um, so yeah.

It's all thanks to Rigs.

Who is the best dog in the world?

100%.

Oh,

Anke: so cute.

So what was that first insight like?

What was the first thing you did
differently or saw differently

where you go, oh, Jesus.

Yeah, we kind of have
a have a way in here.

Holly: Honestly, I just stopped
trying to train him and that might

sound really crazy coming from
a behaviorist or a trainer, but.

I was trying to quote, fix his emotional
instability by asking him to lie down.

Like, how would that ever work
if you think about a human?

And it, at the time, like I said,
I was working in an inpatient ward.

I was working, um, it was a forensic
setting, so these gentlemen would've

been in prison, but they weren't.

Went very well.

So they were with us in hospital
instead, and I saw this play

out at work all the time.

So someone would be really angry
or really sad, and instead of just

sitting and listening to the emotion
and talking to that person about what

they're experiencing, people would find
that uncomfortable and they'd wanna.

Step in and be like, shall
we go do an art session?

Or would you like to go outside or
trying to fix the problem with a task?

And that's what I was being
taught to do as my dog.

Oh, well, you know, he
just needs obedience.

He needs to go to his
bed, he needs to lie down.

Or worse, some trainers really
suggested some quite nasty methods,

which we didn't do thankfully.

But I was like, whoa, hang on a second.

How would I feel if I was him?

And I was saying in my dog language,
mom, I'm really struggling and.

It was responded to with, can
you go lie on your bed, please?

Like that does not compute.

Anke: Yeah, yeah.

Makes you really feel hurt.

Right,

Holly: exactly.

So yes, that was kind of
where it all came from.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a
place for teaching your dog skills.

I think that can be really fun.

My dogs know all kinds of verbal cues
and things like that, but it's not the

answer when it comes to helping them with.

Severe distress, which is where
lots of dogs are, unfortunately.

Whether their people know about it or not.

So time and a place for all
kinds of different things.

But we have to look a bit further
than training sometimes, I think.

Anke: Yeah.

Yeah.

That makes, that makes total sense.

So you just said something
like, when whether people.

Are aware of it or not?

Like, are there things that you find
people often overlook when they, you

know, think the dog needs training, but
you go, well actually, you know, they

need some love and understanding first
and some nervous system, some reason.

What's the, are there sort of typical
things that people overlook or mis

misunderstand or, or judge wrongly?

Holly: I don't think in most cases
this is deliberate or malicious

by any stretch of the imagination.

I think sometimes it's just you
don't know what you don't know.

So one of the most common examples of
this, I was at like a spring fair in the

town that I live in a couple of weeks
ago, and there were like market stalls

and activities and it was super busy.

There's probably about a
couple of thousand people

there in quite a small space.

Loads of people have
brought their dogs now.

Some dogs were totally fine.

Just having a nice day.

Other dogs were showing
all this body language.

They were licking their lips.

Their eyes were wide, they
were turning their head.

They were jumping whenever
something would come near them.

And the people.

Weren't even looking.

I was kind of watching from afar.

This little Jack Russell was
kind of like, oh my gosh.

And his mom was chatting away to another
human and either didn't notice or

noticed and didn't do anything about it.

And I just thought, gosh, like that dog is
being so polite and being really quiet and

holding all of their emotions inside, but.

I wondered if they had been a bit more
expressive and if they'd been barking

and howling, what would've happened then?

Would they have been told off or put
in the car or whatever it might be?

So it kind of happens like
that on a very base level.

And then I think the other thing that
happens really commonly, and this is

normal, we do this human to human as
well, is if you are having a hard time

yourself for whatever reason in your life.

We do become a little bit more
self-focused during those times

because we just don't have the
capacity to think of others as we

normally would or as we would like to.

And so it's as if all
our empathy is used up.

We all talk about compassion
fatigue sometimes where we just

think, I don't care anymore.

And so often if you are caring
for lots of others or you've got

super busy life, you just may not
even have the capacity to think.

That your dog is struggling, and instead
we interpret it as my dog is naughty or

disobedient or loud, or just being a pain.

All of these kinds of phrases,
dogs aren't really doing that.

They're just saying, I'm struggling.

I'm overwhelmed, or I'm stressed, or
I'm excited, or whatever it might be.

Anke: Yeah, that makes,
makes so much sense.

I mean, I, yeah, I don't know.

It just reminds me of like a neighbor.

I had this really, I mean, he
was a dog trainer, you know, well

that's a whole different topic.

But he basically flooded that dog like he.

Rescued that dog.

And he was like really
nervous, really anxious.

And he was getting really freaked
out and he noticed, and his solution

was to take him to a manifestation,
you know, until he literally

like, oh, look how calm he is now.

And I'm like, and you don't
see that this dog isn't calm.

Like she was so shut down.

She was just like, okay, life's over.

Whatever.

You know?

I think, um, there's so many things that
we can misunderstand and almost like.

See the wrong things because we
kind of look through the lens of,

oh, the dog is misbehaving, right?

If you were to look at a behavior through
the lens of, my dog is struggling, I think

you'd see something totally different.

Holly: Yeah, for sure.

And I talk a lot about trauma and
how our past trauma as humans can

massively impact the relationship
we have with our dogs today.

And one of those that really reminds
me of that, what you were just

saying there, because actually.

If we are looking through it through
the lens of what we've been taught

as children, dogs should be seen and
not heard, dogs should lie, quiet,

lit your feet, all of these kinds
of things that we were maybe told as

kids, it gets transferred onto the dog.

And when you really take a
step back, you think, where

did that belief even come from?

Why do I think that?

And as adults, we get the opportunity
to challenge these beliefs, but

you don't challenge it if you
don't even know you have it.

Yeah, that's true.

But it's getting played
out in your behavior.

Um.

I always think it's just quite
ironic that people will say

things like, my dog never listens.

And I always wanna say,
well, are you listening?

Because it's a two-way street, right?

It's not just they should listen
to us, we have to earn that.

And we do that by listening to them.

And you know what?

If my dog says no to something,
even if I really need him to do

it, I have to take a step back and
say, okay, I'm gonna honor that.

And if I something that needs
to happen, I need to think of

a different way of doing this.

'cause you clearly don't
wanna do it that way.

Um, and it, it takes a bit
of patience, but I think it's

worth it for your relationship.

Definitely.

Anke: Mm-hmm.

I think it's that trust that you would
never, you never want to break it.

I.

I mean, I've, I've had the luxury
of seeing, like the two boys I

had, they came pretty traumatized.

And you really notice that they're like,
okay, people, men that can't trust, right?

And so you, you can tell like
they, the, and, and the two girls,

they basically, the big dogs,
nobody's ever messed with them.

Like they also had the luxury of
kind of catching me like a lot later.

Like they weren't the first dog then.

So I'm a lot more.

You know, like, you know, I've seen
this t-shirt where it says like,

uh, you know, mess with me and
I'll fight with, mess with my dogs,

and they'll never find your body.

Like, I'm kind of like that, you know?

So it's like I'll not, like, I've been
really conscious of doing whatever I

can to keep them away from sort of.

Some kind of traumatic event like
little Leo who got bitten and never was

sort of quite the same after that two.

These two girls, they're still
like, one is like 12 and a

half and she goes, I'm cute.

And you know it because
nobody's ever challenged that.

And you can see the difference in, in the
way they experience life and life is with

them when, and it's such a precious like.

Call it innocence or call it like
openness and trusting, you know, and

I'm like, it's the worst thing to
think to somebody with some stupid,

you know, like to just destroy that.

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Anke: By kind of making them feel
like, oh, I don't really care

what's going on for, for you.

Holly: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

I just always want to
think, how would I feel?

And people really often have a
problem kind of aligning dogs with

people say they're not people.

No they're not.

But they have a very huge
emotional range just like we do.

Um, and actually, you know
what, sometimes humans, we hide

some of our emotional range.

We don't want to be seen to be upset.

Or angry or prideful or
whatever it might be.

Whereas your dog, like,
they don't hide anything.

They're just like, here I am.

Um, and actually the only times
where they do hide things is

when they don't feel safe.

Mm-hmm.

And that's why so many rescue
dogs come home and they appear

really meek and calm and quiet.

And then you get four months
in and they go, you know what?

I can trust this human.

Now you're gonna see how I really feel.

And they go, hang on, why have
I got this really reactive dog?

It's like, well, it's kind of
a compliment because they're

saying, this is, this is me.

And then you get to step in and,
and support them with that rather

than them fe feeling like they
can't express who they really are.

Anke: Mm mm It feels a little bit
like this sort of step number,

like let go of expectations.

Yeah.

It's almost like, look at
the doc in front of you.

Holly: And also for yourself, like what
expectations are you putting on yourself

to be this quote perfect dog parent, or
to have a dog that is trained like, you

know, Bailey down the road or whatever,
like, is totally different circumstance.

So

Anke: that, that is true and I,
I do, I do very much remember

sort of those, you know, there
was this mix of frustration and.

Shame.

Bit of guilt.

Like, you know, when I like,
you know, little who, yeah,

he'd gotten bitten, right?

And so now we were living in like, you
know, you've been to, you know, like

there's this little in the scene, this
little cobblestone, like there's no space.

To get out the way.

Right.

So on the other dogs, like
they just come right at you.

Right?

And not, they don't always
have the person with them.

So it is like, there's
nowhere we can go, you know?

And he would then go, okay, in
case of doubt, I'm just gonna

throw myself at the other dog.

Right?

And so you kind of felt the looks of
the old Spanish woman behind is like,

look, she gotta like, look at how,
you know, like the dog, you know?

And.

I do remember.

It's not nice, you know, but I
think it's almost like I can't

let that take over, you know?

Holly: Yeah.

But it feels like it does.

Sometimes it can feel absolutely
mortifying when your dog is doing

something in front of others,
whether it's a member of the public

or even a family member sometimes.

'cause they've got their own
opinions on what you are doing.

Right.

Um.

But I think that is exaggerated.

If in your past, either as a child
or a younger adult, you had a history

of being highly criticized by a
caregiver or a teacher, or judged if

you had bullying, for example, I was
bullied horribly at school, and so I

felt the intensity of other people's
judgment at like 10, 11 years old.

So then, you know, fast forward
to my early twenties with my dog.

I got a look from
someone, it's just a look.

It's not gonna kill me, but it felt
like it was going to, it felt horrific.

And so I couldn't be everything I
needed to be for my dog because I

was so wrapped up with how I was
feeling and how mortifying it was.

So, you know, part of it is
unpicking that, and you know,

you may not be able to change it,
but you can at least identify it.

And I always say to people like.

Just say to yourself, I'm
doing that thing again.

My mind is doing that thing again.

This is not reality.

This is an exaggeration.

I'm just gonna leave it there and
then I'm gonna move on and go do

something nice with my dog instead.

Anke: Yeah.

So when people come to you,
do you actually, like how much

do you work with the person?

How much with the dog, or you know,
do you look at the dog at all?

Holly: Like, I would say a 50 50 split.

So in my most popular program where I
work with sensitive dogs, like it's a

12 week program and a good 50% of it is
talking about the human end of the lead.

And that's because you are a partnership.

Like you are not, it's
not just about the dog.

Um.

They need to feel trust in you.

You need to have collaboration.

You need to feel confident.

You know how many people learn a
technique and then they get into

the situation and they're like, what
was that thing I was supposed to do?

It's completely gone from my mind.

Well, that's because you are having
a fight or flight response yourself.

So the first step is actually how can
I regulate my own emotions and my own

nervous system before I try and help?

Someone else do that with theirs, whether
it's a person, a dog, or an elephant.

Like it's got to start from you.

Right.

Um, or you're not, not
always gonna get super far.

Anke: Yeah.

No, that makes, that makes sense.

I mean, have you, have you had sort of
situations I, I would imagine you have,

I mean, if there's a story you can tell,
uh, where a human had an inside and it

showed up in the behavior of the dog
and change in behavior of the dog, I.

Holly: Definitely, I'm trying to
think of a good, good example.

It's, it's kind of like, you know when
you, did you ever put on those glasses

when you were a kid that like you put
them on and you get like a kaleidoscope

inside and it would distort the outside.

That's often what it's like, right?

So it is almost like we are wearing
these distortion glasses all the time

and then if you just take them off
and just look at something slightly

differently, it makes all the difference.

So one of my students, a
couple of months ago, she said.

I've just started.

She said, to be honest, I haven't
done a lot of the things that you've

told me to do, but what I have done
is that I just started, um, playing

what we call the cheeky chicken game
before, and I can explain that if you

want me to before we leave the house.

Um, my dog and I, her dogs reactive
to dogs and people, and she was

like, it gives me so much confidence.

It makes me feel so much lighter and
I'm looking at my dog differently.

She's like, I'm not.

Scanning her.

Every part of her body going, is her ear
moving one inch too far to the right?

Is her tail slightly
lower than it should be?

I'm just looking at her as a
whole, and I always think that's

a really good thing to, to see.

Don't hone in on one piece of the dog.

Look at them as a whole and decide,
oh, they're generally okay, or

they're feeling a bit worried.

She's like, so just
something as simple as that.

Making that one transition changed my
outlook on how I looked at my dog, and

then we then had a more positive walk.

So it is.

Interesting how just tiny little
tweaks sometimes can Yeah.

Make that difference.

Yeah.

Anke: So now, I mean, I can't let
you go without the chicken leg game.

Holly: Well, it's funny because normally
I give my students video demos of all

of the things I teach, but I always
say to them, I'm not giving you a

demo of this because it is ridiculous.

So.

When my dog strudel, we were in an
apartment building for a while and um,

um, she was six months old, bless her.

She got attacked by another dog and she
had 17 stitches down her neck really bad.

And she was understandably very worried by
dogs on flexi leads from there on and, um.

What was, what was really difficult is
we were on the seventh floor, so we would

come down in the lift or go up in the lift
and those floors would be ticking away and

I'd be thinking that door's gonna open.

And I have no idea
what's on the other side.

Is there one dog?

Are there five dogs?

Is there a dog off lead?

Is there no one?

And so my anxiety would start
to go up, and this is recently,

this is in the last two years.

My anxiety would start to climb and she
for sure would be like, what's up mom?

Like, and she would start to get stressed.

So we started playing what I refer to
as Cheeky Chicken, which is literally

where she goes between my feet and she's,
she's a Liam Burger, so she's really big.

I get her massive long giraffe neck
and I just go, who's a cheeky chicken?

Who's a cheeky chicken?

We just sing this ridiculous song.

Now you could put whatever words you like
in there, but I do like alliteration.

That's quite fun.

Um, and by the end of the elevator
journey, she's smiling and panting,

I felt like a bit better 'cause we'd
moved and got some of the energy

shifted and then whatever happened
when the doors open, we can handle it.

Just so silly.

Not remotely anything to do with training,
but made a big difference for both of us.

I think so, yeah.

Anke: Oh, I that, that makes
so much sense though, right?

Because it kind of took your mind off.

There's the physical movement,
you know, and it just shifted.

The whole, yeah, no, I definitely,
I definitely can totally see

how and why that would work.

It'd be also hilarious if
somebody comes into the lift.

Holly: Well, I only, like, I only
realized probably about a month after

I started doing that, I was standing,
waiting for the lift one day and I

could hear people having a conversation
from another floor and I was like,

oh, so everyone can in fact hear.

We just been got a
performance for everybody.

Anke: Like, you know now what your
neighbors were talking behind you

go, oh, there comes the tiki chicken.

Exactly.

Oh, that is funny.

But I think it's a very cool trick
because I can totally see it takes

that, you know, like it's almost
like when your dog kind of eyes at

something and you know, and you just.

You know, kind of manage to
break that off, but it's like,

we are the same, you know?

Yeah.

Sort of this kind of
scanning and, and worry.

And I think it's anything that, that kind
of cuts through that is, um, you know,

shifts the whole shifts, the whole mood.

Yeah.

That makes, makes perfect sense.

So, so the, the 12 week program
you're talking about for

sensitive folks, it's that.

Holly: Yeah, so I normally offer a free
workshop that people can come to just to

see if we are a good fit for each other.

Um, because I say, as I say, a
lot of people that I work with,

I work with the human as well,
and that's not for everyone.

So I run a workshop called Are
You As Triggered As Your Dog,

which people are welcome to
come and join if they'd like to.

And then if they want to keep
working with me, they can enroll

on the 12 week program after that.

Anke: Cool.

But that's all online, so it doesn't
matter where somebody is and yeah.

Very cool.

About.

Find out about the program, about you,
what all the other things you opt to.

Holly: So if you want to register
for that workshop, it's um,

pause up dogs.com/triggered.

Um, but the other places
to find me are my podcast.

So I've got a podcast for dog
guardians called Letters From Your Dog.

Um, and I have a Facebook group
where I do lots of interviews

and events and things like that.

And that's called Kindness is Essential,
not Optional Dog Training Support.

So if you're on Facebook.

You can come and catch me there.

Um, and then the main website
is pause upd dogs.com.

Anke: Awesome.

Well, thank you so much.

I think I, I just love that approach
of looking at both sides of the leash

because I think you can't just like hold
into and f around with the symptom and

you know, I ignore the whole picture
and I love that you're doing that.

So thank you so much and
thanks so much for coming.

Yeah, thank you.

Bye.

Take care.

Bye.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's a NKE at Soul touched by dogs.com.