Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Dr.

Laura Donaldson.

I'm super excited to have you with me.

Laura: I'm delighted to be here and,
um, you know, I love any opportunity

to talk about becoming trauma informed.

and what trauma is and, um, you know,
I think you've had such great podcasts,

Anke, so I'm, I'm thrilled to be here.

Anke: And it's such a, I think it's such
an important topic and the more I hear

about it, the more I think, you know,
when I got my first dog, it's like, oh

boy, I wish I, I wish I'd known then, you
know, what I'm, what I'm learning now.

So, and, and if there's anybody,
you know, anybody who's listening,

it's like, That's for you, you know?

So it's bringing that awareness
and that knowledge that still

doesn't seem to be the default.

But before we dig in all the
way, , all the way, let people

know where you based and you know,
what's your business with dogs?

Laura: Well, I live in upstate New
York and, uh, we're in the middle of

snow, ice, below zero, wind chill.

Um.

I live on Lake Cuyuga.

It's one of the Finger Lakes.

We're about 250 miles
upstate from New York City.

And, uh, not that far
from the Canadian border.

Uh, and Ithaca is my city and, and
I taught at Cornell for a number

of years, Cornell University, and I
live about five minutes from there.

Uh, so I, I, uh, I've turned
into a farmer in my retirement.

I'm retired from Cornell now.

Um, and I have sheep.

I used to have chickens.

Of course, I have dogs.

I'm down to two.

I've lived with as many as six
in our little tiny 1829 farm.

And my African gray parrot, Obi, who
most people hear, because he loves

to chime in anytime I'm online.

So if you hear whistling or Somebody
calling out Laura, that's him.

Anke: Oh, that is funny, but
he doesn't swear, does he?

Laura: No, he doesn't swear.

It

Anke: just makes me laugh because there
is this, um, I saw like, in, well, in

a YouTube video, there's apparently,
there's a bunch of, like, five or six

African parrots in the British Zoo.

And they swear like truck
drivers and they will insult the

visitors

Laura: and stop so they're
pushing them forward.

And they're the most popular attraction.

People are flocking to come see
them and be sworn at by the parents.

Anke: Somebody in the Facebook group,
you know, somebody says, Oh, well,

you know, I'm surprised that You know,
that positive reinforcement training

should really work there to teach them.

I go, I think they're
getting plenty of positive

Laura: reinforcement.

They are, yes, yes, yes.

I love parrots, but
they're not for everybody.

Let

Anke: me just say.

So now let's unpack.

What do you mean when you say
trauma aware in the context of dogs?

So, you know, how can I become trauma
aware from with my dog for my dog?

Laura: Well by listening to
podcasts like this, that's one.

But you know, so I want to maybe back
up a step and I love this quote from

By Gabor Maté, who's one of my favorite
thinkers, The Myth of Normal, um, if you

want to have something to read by him.

But, um, he says, trauma is a foundational
layer of experience in modern life.

But, It's one that's largely
ignored or misapprehended.

Meaning, a lot of times we see it,
but we think it's something else.

Um, I think There's two
ways that can come out.

If you have a child, for example,
who's struggling with trauma, that

may come out as aggressive behavior
in a elementary school class.

So if you get called, if your kid
is hitting other people in the lunch

line, um, that's liable to be slapped
with one of two things, either a

toxic label, you know, he's just.

bad, or she is just bad, naughty,
um, unlovable, or it's clinically

diagnosed as oppositional disorder.

Uh, and there may be some of that
in there, but what is missing

is the even more fundamental
underlying layer of trauma, because

aggression is a very common response.

to trauma, not just in humans, but dogs.

That makes a lot of

Anke: sense.

So that means if somebody comes
to you with an aggressive dog,

your first direction, the first
direction you look in is like, okay,

what's the underlying trauma here?

Laura: Yes.

Anke: That correct?

Laura: Yes, absolutely.

Um, because I do think the history
is important and what you'll often

find out is, um, you know, and, and
people don't connect these dots, right?

Well, let's see, six months ago, my
dog was attacked by an off leash dog

when we were just walking down the
sidewalk, or, um, my dog was really

terrified by a skateboarder, or, um, you
know, there's what I call microtrauma.

In the home, maybe you have young kids
who are violating the dog's spatial

boundaries on a daily basis, pulling
their ears, yelling, moving fast,

and for many dogs that, that is very
hard to deal with and threatening.

Um, and then I say, and then they, they
remarked on how the dog's behavior kind

of deteriorated over the last six months.

And I connect the dots
and they go, Oh, um.

It helps them to understand
their dog's behavior.

Anke: Yeah.

Laura: Uh, that, that actually, I think,
I've never met a dog struggling with

aggression who didn't have some kind of
trauma in their profile or background.

And that can be veterinary.

It can be a young puppy who has a
series of surgeries and injuries.

And for a lot of their
puppyhood, they're confined.

That can be very traumatic.

Anke: That makes a lot of sense because,
uh, literally like in last week's news

that I wrote about little, little Leo,
he got bitten when he was 11 months old

and it literally destroyed his world.

Yeah.

It, well not, it didn't destroy his world,
it destroyed his trust in the world.

Yeah, you know, and like he lit in he
was this, you know, I'm cute and you know

it like this is how he went through the
world and then this dog came along and

just went for him and he wasn't really
the vet said oh he's ready for Hollywood

what an actor you know because he was
hysterical and um and the vet says oh yeah

he just had this little like if that dog
he really had wanted to he wouldn't be a

kind of thing right so like physically He
didn't have much of an injury, but the,

the, the shock of it all, you know, yeah.

And then he had his cone, which he loved.

And I always got the sense like,
Oh, he feels safe with that thing.

Right.

And he started being reactive against
other dogs afterwards, you know, and

funny enough, funny enough, uh, male
dogs, Big male dogs in confined spaces.

He was fine on the beach, right?

So you could really, it was easy,
but that's, the thing is, it's easy

to trace that back because it was
literally instant, the shock at

the vet where he was obviously also
frightened, you know, because they said,

Oh, well, no, we had to sedate him.

We couldn't even like examine him.

So it's really clear.

Now, what are some.

Things that can traumatize a dog
that may not be as obvious to see.

Laura: Well, I think
there, there are many.

I talk about, um, you know, I've written
this series of articles on canine trauma

for Happy Healthy Dog, uh, and we can
post the links to some of them because

the very first one was on, uh, was called,
Is Your Dog Experiencing Microtrauma?

Right?

And microtrauma is often
hidden in plain sight.

It's daily, it's not like, uh, the macro
trauma of being attacked by an off leash

dog, or being in an accident, or, uh,
being in a natural disaster like a fire.

Right?

This is, um, it often has to
do with the interaction between

dogs and young children.

Um, it can be, um, the presence of other
dogs in the building, in the neighborhood.

Let's say you live in a more
urban area and you have to take

an elevator to go anywhere.

Elevators can be quite Scary for dogs and,
um, I think it's not just the confinement,

it's the noises, it's the movement.

And it's also, there's no escape route.

So if you're in there with another dog who
doesn't have good intentions, I've worked

with dogs who were attacked in an elevator
and, um, that was quite traumatizing,

but microtrauma, it could be even
noises, hidden noises that we can't hear.

That your refrigerator is giving out.

Um, Eileen Anderson has some wonderful,
um, articles on Sonic, the sonic

overload that's often happening
to our dogs that we can't hear.

Um, so it can, it can just be anything
because here's the bottom line.

Trauma is our response to an experience.

It has, it's not in the inherent
qualities of the experience itself.

So, um, one dog could be attacked
in an elevator and be, you know,

maybe be stressed out and need some
recovery time, but then they'd be

fine to go in the elevator, no issues.

Another dog would be attacked and, and
you would have to, you know, put a, uh,

a new set of stairs outside your window.

That's how bad the resistance would be.

But it's like

Anke: with people, it's the same.

Laura: Yeah.

You know some people Exactly.

Anke: I like . You know how they
always say, oh, the most stressful,

like the 10 most stressful.

Actually, during, when I did coach
training, we did an exercise and

we were like put in a group with a
list of like horrific stuff, right?

And we were supposed to
come to an agreement.

What's the order of horrific?

And there was being in prison,
there was being like, I don't know,

broke, like being paralyzed, like
all these different things, right?

And as you can imagine, it was
impossible to find an order because

it wasn't like, oh, moving house
is horrible, it's super stressful.

I'm like, Moving house, bit of a pain
in the butt, but not stressful, right?

So other people freak out over it, right?

So another one, I thought, Oh my God,
the, I did the shame of going into prison.

Somebody else goes, Oh yeah,
no, I've been in prison.

Not that bad.

It's like, it's literally, it's
not the thing itself, you know?

Yes.

Laura: It's not the experience itself,
it's our response to it, and it usually

is our long term response to it.

Uh, I use an expansive definition
of trauma, uh, from Judith Herrmann,

who's again one of my favorite trauma
thinkers, and it's anything that

overwhelms our capacity to cope.

So this is not stress, right?

And it's not even severe stress.

This is something that actually causes
us and our bodies to activate adaptive

survival strategies that we may
still be using 20 years later, right?

And it's no different in dogs.

This can expand over a period of years.

Um, and so that, in that sense, dogs
and humans process trauma and respond

to trauma in very closely parallel ways.

Anke: So apart from aggression,
you know, where it becomes like

a problem for the owner, right?

So what other ways can, especially
these micro traumas, like in other,

in what other ways can they show up
in a dog that we might often overlook?

Laura: There are many, and, and
again, it parallels what happens

in humans, especially children.

Um, but you, you can
develop avoidance behavior.

That's a big strategy.

That's an adaptive survival mechanism.

And I often talk about, this has been
one of my favorite themes over a period

of years, there's no stubborn dogs.

There's no willful dogs.

They're confused,
scared, traumatized dogs.

And what happens is, let's say you want,
you take your dog out for a walk, right?

And something really scares her.

Maybe you have a dog that
runs down to fence fight.

three houses down the
road or something worse.

I, it could be anything.

Um, and the next day you want to go
for a walk and she says, no, thank you.

You know, she's balking at the front door.

I'm not going out.

So one thing I want to stress
is that this is a communication.

It is not willfulness.

It's not being stubborn.

Um, and so we need to listen to our
dogs, take their communication seriously.

That is a communication of stress.

Or dogs who just plop down on the
sidewalk in the middle of a walk.

Why are they doing that?

That is the first question to ask.

Are you in pain?

Are you scared?

Usually it's because outside has
become too dangerous for them.

And so, you know, one of my huge themes,
and if you do any of my trauma Webinars

and courses, you'll hear me talk about
this all the time, is we have to start

with a foundation always, always,
always of deep safety, deep safety.

Why does a dog not want
to go out of the house?

Because she's not feeling safe.

And so, our, the usual behaviorist
response, and I would say, you know,

some people have done things like
take a water bottle and spray the

dog in the face with water, right?

Or you get a shock
collar and you zap them.

I mean, those are just Don't even,

let's

Laura: not even go down that road.

That's very cruel.

But, I think even doing
something like, okay, you don't

want to go out of the house.

I'm, I'm gonna get your favorite
treat, and I'm gonna lure you out,

and I'm gonna keep Is that really,
that is I would say that's putting way

too much pressure on the dog before
we even understand what's going on.

And it breaks trust as well.

Breaks trust, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because listening to and hearing our
dogs for who they really are is one of

the most healing things we can do and
that's where we always have to start.

So

Anke: what would you suggest?

Let's just play out that scenario.

So Maybe, I don't know, you know,
maybe somebody hasn't even, the

dog got scared, but you know, like,
I guess, you know, I'm living in

Spain, so you see a lot of stuff.

People might be chatting, so
the owners might not have even

seen what happened, right?

Exactly.

And so now the dogs, they're
like, I'm not going out.

Right.

So we're not forcing him.

I've seen a dog trainer, local
dog trainer, adopt a Mali

who was like super scared.

And then he goes, look,
look, I'll fix them.

And he totally flooded him.

You know, he was scared of people.

He took him into some like manifestation
with like people to, the dog literally

froze, the dog would not move at all.

And he goes, look how obedient he is.

Right.

Cruel to the nth degree
to my, in my books.

But, um, So we also don't want to
manipulate them and like lure them to

do something they don't want to do.

Okay, what do I do to support my dog and
to, to help them, you know, get over this?

Laura: Let me just say, obedience has
nothing to do with healing from trauma.

Suppression, in fact, I, I have a, I
did a whole Facebook post on this and

I talk about it in all my courses.

Suppression of behavior.

does not equal healing from trauma.

Um, compliance is not, uh, cooperation.

Anke: I love that.

Ooh, I love that.

Laura: Yeah, and, and it doesn't
mean that our dog really has a good

state of emotional well being, even
if they are sitting or lying down in

the presence of concerning triggers.

And I'm always concerned with the
emotional well being first and foremost.

So I, I would do, so let me just give
you an example, and this is one Um,

if people are interested, the next
place to go for, you know, a deeper

dive would be my webinar called,
Why Becoming Trauma Informed Will

Change Everything You Do With Dogs.

It's on Thinkific.

We can put the link in, it's almost free.

Um, and so one of the examples I used.

was a nine month old lab mix who,
uh, refused to be or was very

difficult to, to house train.

Right at nine months, he was
still pooping inside the house.

And, and he had a lot of other
severe fear, anxiety, stress.

issues and, and what the dog's human had
not done was connect the dots, right?

Why at nine months was he
still not house trained?

Because it definitely was not a
physical like bladder GI issue.

No, it was a trauma issue.

For this dog, going
outside was too dangerous.

And so he might go out and pee and then
run back in, but pooping, uh, requires

the dog to make themselves a lot more
vulnerable because it takes longer.

They have to either squat
or change positions, right?

And so what we actually did was we worked
on the deep safety aspect of it and

we were doing this for his whole life
with this family, but particularly for

house training, um, we had to find a
way to help him feel safe going outside.

So we put a tent up right off the
porch, right, that had sides and an

entrance so he could, you know, go out
on the grass, but he was protected.

Um, he actually ended up choosing
his own little safe haven outside,

but erecting that tent, that safe
space, was a way to acknowledge,

okay, you're not just being difficult.

You're not just being naughty.

You're not just untrainable.

This is Really a, a deep seated, um,
somatic, as well as cognitive issue,

and, uh, that was the beginning of
him actually being able to go outside.

Uh, with no issue.

Um,

Anke: that makes so much sense though,
because I'm just like thinking,

if you imagine, you know, if I'm
imagining like I , I don't know.

You know, when I lived in Grenada, there
was a time when, you know, you couldn't

hardly go outta the house without somebody
kind of trying to grab your back, right?

Yeah.

And so you get kind of scared, you know?

So when you're sort of scared to go
out at night, you know, whatever.

Yeah.

And so I do remember
that sensation, right?

When you kind of don't feel safe
and you feel vulnerable and, and

so just the thought of somebody
then treating me as if I'm stubborn

or as

Anke: if I just don't want to do the
thing or if I'm just being difficult,

you know, so it's not just that you deal
with the thing, then you're on top of

it deal with that being misunderstood
and judged Unfairly, basically.

So that's pretty much what we're
doing to dogs if we don't start to

recognize what's actually going on.

Laura: Yes, and we know trauma
lives in the body, right?

First, foremost, most
deeply, it's somatic.

The body keeps the score, which is
the name of a very famous book by

Bessel van der Kolk, a trauma, uh,
a leader in the world of trauma.

Um, and so I, you know, becoming trauma
informed, Um, I, I just think I, in the,

in this, in the article I did for Happy
Healthy Dog, um, I talk about five basic

realities of being trauma informed.

First and always is safety.

Ensuring that feeling, that
visceral sense of deep safety.

So, if my dog is balking, going out the
front door on a walk, I have to assume

she's doing the best she can with the
strategies that are available to her,

one of which is avoidance behavior.

And she is actually able to express some
agency, no, I don't want to go out there,

I, It's too scary for me right now.

Um, so instead of doing the way
too often monologue, I talk, you

listen, we're going on a walk by
God, I don't care what you feel.

I would say you need to leave your dog
at home and take the walk on your own.

You know, uh, but, but safety first.

What can I do to help you feel safe?

And maybe that means we only have
exercise in the backyard for a

while until I can get a better
sense of what is happening, right?

Second is trustworthiness, which we've
talked about, and that means not tricking

my dog by laying a trail of treats.

And saying for them, well, you're
just mistaken, outside is safe.

Well, no, maybe not for the dog, right?

Um, prioritizing choice, because we
know with trauma, agency is taken away.

So, um, and not, and not just,
by whatever happened to us.

Like, I didn't ask for
that dog to attack me.

I didn't ask to be assaulted.

Um, you know, the list goes on,
but, but it, it, it's also, um,

we can't heal according to
other people's schedule.

Agenda.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Healing only comes from within.

And, and that's what a lot
of people lose sight of.

By God, you're going to heal because
I'm going to go, we have to go to

our family vacation in a month.

So whatever your issues are,
you need to be over them.

But I hear this a lot from clients, right?

Yeah.

Anke: And I guess it would be worth,
worse with, with dogs, you know, you

wouldn't say that to your child, you
know, but it's almost like the dogs

expected to fit into our life, you
know, so who would go as like, Oh,

we'll just reschedule the holiday.

Right.

Laura: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and then collaboration.

This is a huge one, right?

And, um, the way I define collaboration
is, um, as interspecies cooperation.

This is a mutual relationship.

You're my partner.

And with a partner, we We
both have responsibilities.

We both gain deep benefits.

But, uh, the hallmark of a partnership
is is, um, communication and me listening

to you and changing what I do, right?

I change what I do based on
what I'm hearing from you.

Um, and, and part of that is also taking
a step back to trustworthiness, believing

that our dogs are doing the best they can.

with the adaptive survival strategies
they have at their disposal.

It doesn't mean we won't work with
them to help them find more adaptive,

more appropriate, uh, more functional.

Um, but yeah, and then,
and then, um, empowerment.

And I used to hate that word, right?

Because it, it can.

It can be blaming the victim.

If you're not empowered, then you
must be doing something wrong, right?

But for, but for dog,
I've reclaimed it, right?

And this is how I've redefined
it through my work with dogs.

And that's by helping dogs learn
the coping skills, the coping

strategies they need to heal.

whatever they need, and I've
got to take my clues from them.

I can't come in and say, okay, here's
the A, B, C, D, you need to heal.

No, it's different for every dog.

And then they have like a toolbox or
a repertoire of independent coping

skills, even things like grounding,
deep breathing, trauma informed

movement that they can use on their own.

Independently, that's
what I call empowerment.

Anke: You know, knowing how to deal.

And I think that, that not being

kind of, not overlooked, but you
know, like not being ignored and not

being, oh yeah, you don't, you, you
just be, I'm just like, like, this

really sits with me when I'm thinking,
okay, when I'm scared and somebody

says, oh, just don't be an idiot.

You know, hang on, we've got
to go like just get over it.

Like, you know, it's it's cruel.

It's inconsiderate.

It's unkind, you know, so

it's just like you would not want to
like you would certainly not trust that

person because you you think like, well,
they don't have my best interest at

heart because they don't even stop long
enough to understand what I'm feeling.

Exactly.

And they don't even make an effort.

Yeah.

And so, and I'm thinking we, we really
owe it to our dogs to look at them as,

you know, yes, another species, but
somebody who, who deserves enough respect

to sort of think about, like, hang on,
what, like, how does it feel for you?

You know, what does this whole situation
look like through your eyes and not what

I'd like to have because, you know, I
want to go to the barbecue on Saturday.

Right.

Laura: Yeah.

And I love your example of, you know,
it's the basic, just get over it.

Life is easier for me if you get over it.

Anke: I mean, the thing is, I mean,
and that's why I just love that

conversation because I do like,
I have to admit, you know, like

Leo got bitten like 20 years ago.

You know, and I didn't
know then what I know.

He was my first dog.

I didn't have a clue.

And you know and I was living
in a in a, in a house where we

had to go out for him to pee.

If I didn't want him to
pee in the house, right.

But I mean, to be honest, like after
like, this whole situation and the

whole shuffle and then he was to
the vet and the vet goes, he's an

actor, like he's ready for Hollywood.

He just kind of like, he's
a drama queen and I took him

like now I'm like, Oh my God.

Like makes me sort of 20 years later,
makes me kind of like shrink back in

embarrassment because the day, like, you
know, after, when he sort of recovered,

like, okay, let's go for a walk.

Cause that's what I.

For what I needed and that's what I
thought like he needs to go out and

pee, you know Everybody always tells
you you need to go out for walks.

Now.

I'm thinking I would have left that
dog inside, you know for You know

enough time for him to just even
process what happened, but it wasn't

that I thought like oh Stop Leo.

I don't give a I love that dog to bits.

I just didn't know You know, it never
even occurred to me that that You

I mean, and he didn't sort of, sort
of, not want to go, I didn't have

to pull him out because he probably
didn't know anything different

either, but it's like, I'm now looking
like, oh, that was probably not the

best thing to do, you know, but I
literally, it didn't even occur to me.

that something else would be available or
the much, much better way of rather than,

okay, let's just go back to normal, right?

And then deal with you getting
kind of scared at other dogs.

Laura: Well, and I think the example
of the vet You know, you cannot

assume that even our veterinary
professionals are trauma informed.

They're not.

And I gave a webinar on exactly
that topic to the National Group of

Veterinary Behaviors from Switzerland.

And I was thrilled to do that because
it shows there's a growing interest

in and recognition of the need for
this in the veterinary community.

because that response from your VAT,
that that is equivalent to malpractice.

It really is, um, and I, but I
think it's one that a lot of people,

it's not just that trauma is ignored
as a foundational layer, so people

don't even know about it, but it,
you have to remember, it hasn't been

that long that we've recognized dogs.

as, um, sentient, emotional, cognitive
beings, and of all the kind of

higher, uh, mammal species, it's
actually, we now know, because the

research is ongoing and accumulating,
dogs and humans have uncannily

similar social and emotional brains.

It doesn't mean dogs think like
humans, because they don't use verbal.

language, but they have
sophisticated communication.

They process experience and information
from the environment in very similar ways.

And because of that, they have
very similar behavior issues.

Um, and so that's why I start
almost all my webinars with the dogs

and humans are uncannily similar.

And You, if you really took that
seriously, you would never make

a response by saying, Oh, they're
just acting, or this is not

important, or just get over it.

That kind of thing.

Anke: Yeah.

I mean, it makes, you know, it makes
so much sense to think, well, yeah,

you, I mean, also like looking at it,
it, it helps, you know, what's right.

You know, because there's so much
stuff that you wouldn't do or wouldn't

say if you, if you thought like,
okay, you know, if that was me,

you know,

Anke: frightened of something,
would I appreciate somebody

say, oh, don't be stubborn now?

Well, no, you know, I probably
wouldn't trust you again.

Yeah.

You know, if I know that I can't trust you
to even bother to try and understand me.

Laura: And I think that's a great
rule of thumb, what you just,

if I would, if I, how would I
feel if someone did that to me?

Don't do it to your dog.

Anke: Well, that's a, that's a, that's
a pretty cool ground rule, right?

So I think, you know, if somebody
stopped for long enough to even think

that, you know, I think we'd get a
lot, a lot better, better reaction.

So if somebody wanted
to really dig into that.

So obviously we're going to pop
the links to the um, articles

and to the Thinkific course.

What's, where's the best place
to get in touch with you and

find out more about your work?

Laura: Well, you can go to my website.

I have a contact form.

It's fourpawsfourdirections.

com really easily remembered.

Um, I get to know most people
through my courses and webinars,

and they're all on Thinkific.

The one I would recommend starting
with is the Trauma Informed one.

Um, Why Becoming Trauma Informed Will
Change Everything You Do With Dogs.

And then I have others.

I have one on trauma and aggression.

Um, I have a new one coming
out in May called, um,

Befriending Difficult Behaviors.

And befriending is kind of my new
rubric that incorporates a lot

of the work I've done on trauma.

Aggression, fear, anxiety, stress, the
whole nine yards, um, and then you'll,

you'll get, you know, you, people have
to kind of make their own path, right?

I'm a, anyone who knows me
knows I'm blueprint aversive.

Um, so, um, are you okay?

I had a bit of a cough attack.

Yes, I'll keep talking.

Um, and, and so what, what I, would want
people to take away are some underlying

principles, guidelines, like the safety,
trustworthiness, choice, collaboration,

empowerment, deep safety, but how you
actually build that into your life

with your dogs or client dogs, that,
that is yet to be discovered, right?

Uh, so that's why a good working
knowledge is so important, um,

because there's no blueprint for this.

Yeah, this is

Anke: really kind of, it's kind
of trailblazing in a sense, right?

Laura: Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, so we'll put, I'll put the link,
I'll send Anke the links for the, the one

course, and then you can go to my website.

Email me.

That contact form comes right to my inbox.

You can always direct message
me too if you're on Facebook.

So all of those are ways to get in touch.

Awesome.

Anke: Well, thank you so much.

Um, you already know that I'm going
to be on your case in May to get you

back when you have the new webinar.

So definitely want you back
for that as well to share about

it and tell us all about it.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for today and I'll
hope to speak to you again soon.

Laura: Thank you for having me.

Take good care.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
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