Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome Nancy.

I'm super excited to have you here.

Nancy: Thank you.

I'm excited to be here.

Anke: Wonderful.

So we ha we just had a little discussion
on makeup of all things that we both not

interested in, so it was quite funny.

Um, so let people know where in this
lovely world are you based and you know,

as always, what's your business with dogs?

Nancy: Sure.

So I live in California.

Um.

I moved here in 2020.

I'd been in California before, but
then I spent a decade in North Carolina

and now I'm back, um, coincident with
the birth of my oldest grandchild.

Uh, I live in northern California
in the San Francisco Bay area.

Uh, dogs.

I, I like to say that I, uh, left
the womb in love with animals,

and by the age of 10, I knew that
I wanted to be a veterinarian.

And lo and behold, that's what I became.

Um, I went to veterinary school at
Cornell and then came to California

to U University of California Davis
to do residency training and became a

specialist in small animal veterinary
medicine, and I practiced for 35 years.

I'm retired from clinical
practice, although I still have

a license so I can take care of
my friends and loved ones dogs.

Cats.

Um, and I, so I practiced, had a
very lovely fulfilling career and

in 2008, um, I wrote my first book
and I can tell you about why I wrote

it, if you like, but, uh, I wrote my
first book and then that led to more

writing, blogging for many, many years.

I continue to blog weekly, and
since then I wrote another book.

And I am releasing a third book this year.

Anke: Very exciting.

So now obviously I can't, like
you've, you've made it easy.

I can't, I can't help take the bite.

Um, so what made you write, like what
inspired, you know, because I mean, you

know, I've written a book, there's a lot
of work in it, so you don't do that in

unless you feel you have something to say.

You know, what inspired the first one and
um, you know, how did that story evolve?

Nancy: And approximately 2006, as
you know, women of a certain age

have mammograms, routine screening
mammograms, and something showed

up on the mammogram, which led to
other procedures in a biopsy, and the

biopsy revealed some atypical cells.

And it, I was, it was recommended that
I have what's called a lumpectomy,

a surgical removal of that area.

And I happened to have a client who
was a pathologist, meaning looking at

tissue samples under the microscope,
and his specialty was breast tissue.

And so I contacted him and he
said, yeah, bring the slides

over, bring the mammogram over.

We'll look, and I went to his office.

And he's the person who wrote
the textbook on breast pathology.

Like he is the guy.

And uh, and he said, you have
absolutely nothing to worry about.

This is why people get concerned about
these cells, but nothing to worry about.

And so I left the office so relieved
and thinking, wow, you know, it's my

medical advocacy skills that allowed
me to avert and needless surgery.

Wow.

And how does the average person do that?

I mean, I have all this
medical wisdom and knowledge.

I know how to do it, but how does
the average Joe know how to do it?

And so I thought, I wonder if I
could teach people how to do this.

And I felt it would be
presumptuous for me to write a

book pertaining to human medicine.

So I wrote a book about dogs
called Speaking for Spot.

Be the Advocate Your dog needs to
live a happy, healthy, longer life.

And originally I thought it would
just be lists of questions to ask

the doctor, but you're veterinarian.

But it became so much more, um, became
a bestseller and many people told me

that yes, it applied to their dogs,
but they took the same advice with

them when they went to the doctor.

So that was the evolution of
speaking for Spot, which has

kind of become my brand name.

I'm publishing my next book, um,
under Speaking for Spot Press.

Anke: Oh wow.

So, I mean, that I love, I love that
so much because literally soul touched

by dogs was born 'cause of that.

Oh.

I ended up like, okay, found a
puppy in the street now walk, right?

Yeah.

So, and it was always that, um, sense that
I didn't, I knew I didn't know anything.

So I started looking at learning and.

I was advised by beds, by trainers, by,
you know, didn't make sense, you know?

Yes.

And there was always that, Hmm, you can't
take at face value what you're being told.

So that whole journey of knowing I
don't know anything, so I'm gonna

believe anything anybody tells me to.

I need to educate myself so that.

I can make an informed decision and I
can kind of weigh up one opinion against

another and, and sort of, you know,
be an advocate for my dog, you know?

Right.

'cause the dog will fall through
the cracks between all the different

opinions and different approaches.

And so the advocacy of it is, is
really what, what sparked this

whole, this whole project, you know?

But you come at this from the,
from the, um, medical angle.

Nancy: Correct.

And in my book I convey that you,
the person who takes care of that

dog, you are actually the team
captain of your dog's healthcare.

Mm.

And you have veterinarians.

You have trainers, have a lot of
people, uh, that you rely on for

advice, but you, you are the team cap.

And you get to make the tough decisions.

Anke: Yeah.

Well, I mean, that's the thing.

It's like, I guess it's, I guess it's no
different than having kids in a sense.

Right.

You know, it's also like, yeah, you
don't go to school for that, you know?

Right.

And you have to make the decisions and,
and choose who to trust and who you don't.

So I guess it's not that
different, but I somehow.

Didn't quite see that coming when I found
that little puppy in the street, you know?

Yes.

I didn't realize there was gonna be so
much conflicting advice and so much,

you know, outdated advice that was still
kind of like regurgitated as if nothing

else had been discovered since, you know?

Yes, yes.

So, so what inspired the
other books after, after that?

So.

You just, did you get bitten
by the writing book then?

Nancy: Um, I, yeah.

I definitely have the writing
bug as evidenced by how much I've

blogged once a week for years.

Um, the second book, uh, is called,
uh, your Dog's Best Health, A Dozen

Reasonable Things To Expect From Your Vet.

Mm-hmm.

People sometimes have difficulty
expressing their needs and

opinions with their veterinarian.

Their veterinarian,
they put on a pedestal.

And that's not, that's not what
I encourage anyone to do it.

I encourage what we call relationship
centered care, where it's a team approach,

not just sitting and being told what
to do, but discussions of options and.

What makes the most sense for your dog,
who you know better than anyone else,

and what makes sense for you, what you
can afford, your lifestyle, all of that.

Um, and so many people didn't
really know what's reasonable

to expect from their vet.

And it's reasonable to expect a lot
of things that people often don't get.

And I encourage, like, can

Anke: you give a.

Nancy: Sure.

Um, discussion of all options
and the cost for all options.

Uh, there may be a best approach,
but if it's not affordable,

it's not the best approach.

Um, yes.

And that your veterinarian encourages
you to be part of the team,

not just being told what to do.

Um, things like that.

Oh, uh, for example.

Many people leave their pets
in the hospital overnight not

knowing that there's no one
there with the dog overnight.

And if your dog is sick enough to
be in a hospital overnight, there

should be someone providing care.

So 24 hour care is something that, uh,
is reasonable to expect from your vet.

And if they don't provide 24
hour care, they should refer

you to a facility that does.

So various things like that

Anke: that Yeah, that's, that's, yeah,
that's reminds me of a conversation

with a friend I had, like where that was
literally the case, you know, where Yeah.

The dog was there overnight and you know,
they came in the morning and she had

smashed the glass of that each thing and
you know, probably eaten some of it in

that, you know, in her distress state.

Yeah.

Nobody was there, you know,
so it's like, yeah, it's kind.

You wouldn't even think that.

Right.

You would not imagine that they just go
close people and come back to Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally.

Totally.

I, I think it's also that, that
asking for a second opinion and

I, you know, I'm, I, I only know,
like, I've not had a dog before.

I lived in Spain, so I only
know the way it goes here.

And I definitely often found it
quite frustrating, you know, so to

ask for, Hey, what are the options?

They will all just tell you one.

Nancy: Right.

That's not okay.

Anke: You know, and I not, well, don't
you, then I'll go, you know, I'm, but

I'll research everything I can, you
know, to sort of see and, and, um.

I mean, example was the, the first
girl I had, you know, and so it was

like, okay, I don't want puppies,
like, you know, all I knew she was a

puppy still, you know, and I'm like,
I all, all I know is like I don't

want to have a whole bunch of puppies.

So what are the options right?

Literally every, I called every
single, I called five different beds.

And then every single one said, oh,
well, you know, we just need to take

everything out like before the first hit.

And I'm like, from what I've read,
that's not kind of the only option.

And I remember friends in Germany,
people told me that there are other

different ways and different approaches
and you know, I'm thinking timing.

I expected them to say,
well, here are the options.

Here's the one I recommend, here's why.

That's what I was hoping for.

And none of them actually gave that.

Exactly.

They all said the same thing.

You know, this is the, on the only way,
and, and then I, I have a trust problem.

You know, if I think they don't know,
then I don't really trust them anymore,

Nancy: you

Anke: know?

Right.

Nancy: In my book, uh, speaking for Spot,
there's a whole chapter, uh, on this.

It's titled A Second Opinion Is
a Second Opinion is Always Okay.

Hmm.

And that's true for us as well
with our own medical care.

And people get hung up on requesting a
second opinion from their veterinarian.

They're worried that they're going to
hurt their veterinarian's feelings.

And what I say is what's more important?

Dog's health or your
veterinarian's feelings, and to

me that's, that's a no brainer.

Anke: Hmm.

Nancy: Yeah.

Yeah.

Anke: But I guess then you are almost
like, you also, between, if you have vet

number one says this and vet number two
says something the opposite, and then

you don't know which ones, right, right.

Then you,

Nancy: then you go to vet number
three, or you consult with a specialist

Anke: who's

Nancy: going to be most up to date,
most current on what's involved.

There's four different ways to spay a dog.

Um, I recently blogged about
all those different ways.

Mm-hmm.

And actually Europe is more
progressive about this than

veterinarians in the United States.

Anke: Mm-hmm.

Nancy: And so it's very common in Europe,
for example, to simply remove the ovaries.

And leave the uterus in
place in the United States.

It's very rare that veterinarians do that.

They remove the uterus and the ovaries.

Anke: Yeah.

Nancy: And removing the uterus isn't
at all necessary, and it involves more

trauma, more time, more surgical time.

So, um, yeah.

Uh, and there's also ovary sparing spay.

So the dog is still producing
hormones, but she can't conceive.

Um, and there's a, well, I've

Anke: heard of all of this from my friend
in Germany because there they did have

all these, that was even like a pill or
something, you know, there's all these

different options, you know, and then
you come here and, and they go, oh no,

you just kind of have to like, before you
know, they can even like walk basically.

Nancy: Well, there's also a
lot of data about the timing

of Spain in particular breeds.

And I have all that research on a website.

Called spay neuter advice.com

and for, and it's for certain breeds,
neutering before a year to a year and

a half of age, increases the incidences
of orthopedic issues and increases the

incidences of certain types of cancers.

And it's, it's very brief, specific.

So, um, veterinarian should be taking
all of that into account when advising

on the methodology for neutering.

With male dogs, I questioned if a
dog really needs to be neutered,

if the owner is responsible and
can prevent unintentional litters.

Um, yeah, and, and the timing of
the neutering is also important,

so, uh, there's a lot to consider.

It's not just neuter between
four and six months of age.

That's all you need to know.

There's a lot more to consider these days.

Anke: No.

And I do

Nancy: find, by the way, that
veterinarians, at least in the

United States, it usually takes
them 10 to 20 years to begin

to adopt the newest research.

So for example, when we learned that dogs
don't need to be vaccinated once a year

for everything, it took veterinarians
in the United States about 20 years.

To really embrace that.

Anke: Well, they haven't started here.

No, no, they haven't started yet.

Like this looks like, it looks to me like
what's going on here is, is like 20, 30

years behind of everybody else, you know?

And yeah, it's, it's, I
guess it also evolves.

I mean, you know, I've literally heard
like, like there was a, a, a Spanish vet

and she was very young actually, so she
just sort of finished and she was in this.

Program and she was talking to this
other person and they go, oh, well I've

just finished, like this is the last,
like, I've just finished my studies.

I will never open a book again.

Like I'm done.

You know?

And I'm like, alright, like you've
just disqualified yourself in

my book because I guess Exactly.

You know, like if there's any.

Field where ongoing learning would
have to be, you know, it, it has to be

anything to do with medicine, right?

You don't wanna kind of stay
stuck at what you learned when

you finished uni, you know?

Yes.

So, and somebody who comes in
with that attitude is, yeah.

That learning thing.

I'm, I'm with that.

I thought that was scary.

Hmm.

Nancy: Um, and then is it okay for
me to talk about my third book?

Anke: Oh, absolutely.

I was gonna ask you anyway.

So,

Nancy: um, as a human being,
as a veterinarian, uh.

Probably my biggest soapbox
issue, uh, it, it has to do with

anything having to do with animal
welfare is a soapbox issue for me.

But in particular, puppy mills, and I
believe that puppy mills exist in Spain.

I know they exist in the uk.

Um, and puppy mills are, are basically
large commercial breeding facilities.

Where profit is prioritized over the
humane treatment of the animals and

meeting the both the physical and
psychological needs of the animals.

Many of the animals in puppy mills
spend their entire lives in small

cages being bred cycle after cycle
after cycle, and when they're useful

breeding life if it is over there.

They're eliminated.

They're in a variety of ways,
many of which are unsavory.

So, um, I have grown weary of
adults not getting the job done in

terms of eliminating puppy mills.

And the way that one eliminates puppy
mills is to, to diminish the demand

for puppies coming from puppy mills.

So.

Um, do you, are you familiar
with Greta Thunberg?

Yeah, I think that's her.

Yes.

And so she's a kid who's all about climate
change, and I thought, you know what?

Maybe I need to teach
kids about puppy mills.

And I thought I would write a nonfiction
book because that's what I've written.

And I wrote a number of.

Of iterations of it, and I
just thought, man, if I were a

kid, I would never read this.

And so I ended up writing a fiction book.

That's an adventure story about a
12-year-old girl that has a chance

encounter with a pregnant runaway
golden retriever from a puppy mill.

Oh, and one thing leads to another.

She and her best friend discovered
the puppy mill, and now it's a

matter of rescuing all of those dogs.

And it's going to be
released later this year.

It's called a dog named 6 4 7, and I'm,
I'm really excited about it because, and,

and I did have several beta readers, 11
middle grade beta readers, and most of

them had never heard about a puppy mill.

Never heard of puppy mills.

So I'm really excited to get this
in the hands of kids at a time

when their awareness of the world
around them is really budding.

Anke: Yeah.

Oh God, I love that.

I love that so much because
that's, it's, thank you.

Literally, it's, it's, it's that
next generation that, you know, where

when, when kids are taught something
different, then the whole thing

can change in a fundamental way.

Yeah.

I mean, that feels like this, this
is sort of mandatory reading and,

you know, schools and libraries
and, and things like that.

Yes.

I

Nancy: hope I'm website
sort of organization called.

Kids united for animal welfare and
so puppy mills will be one of the

topics, but there's so many other
topics they can become aware of.

Factory farming of animals.

What happens to all the male baby
chicks that are born who aren't

going to be able to lay eggs?

There's just so many topics and
uh, I would love for kids to become

fluent in animal welfare issues.

Anke: Yeah.

And they, you know, and a lot, and a
lot of them do love, you know, like

kids when you, when you see, you know,
I, I just love, love like sort of

four or five year olds, you know, when
they still, the way they approach an

animal with that sense of like wonder
and that, you know, like they're

open, they're open to things and yeah.

And I think it's, it's giving them
a chance to, to learn about these

things as, as, um, yeah, I think
that's making a huge difference.

And it's sort of starting
at the right place, right.

I hope so.

Nancy: I hope so, because appealing
to adults hasn't worked and there's

legislation at least in the United States.

Okay, so now the, the cages are
large enough that a dog can lay down.

Um, whoopie, do you know it?

There's nothing about how the
dogs need social engagement

with humans, with other dogs.

They need blankets.

They need enrichment toys, they.

They need to be fed more than once a day.

They need clean water.

They need to be in a climate
controlled environment so it

doesn't get too hot or too cold.

Come on.

And having been in puppy mills and
looked into the eyes of those dogs,

well, oh, I just can't not work on this.

Anke: Mm, I don't, you know what I, I.

Like, I admire you for being able
to go in there because it's almost

like it's gotta be heartbreaking.

You know?

I always think like a dog looks
you straight into the soul anyway.

And you know, seeing like this,
it's just, it's just horrific.

I mean, this is a very public invitation.

Like once your book is out, I would
love to have you back too, you know.

Thank you.

Um, showcase that in a thank you
for another, for another round.

So in the meantime, where could people,
you know, get your books, find out

more about you, connect with you?

Nancy: Um, so one easy way to connect
with me is via my Substack, and I

know you write on Substack as well.

And the Substack, uh, website is k, my
last name KN for nancy.substack.com.

So that's a way to find me there.

Um, I'm working on a new website,
author website, um, which will

be DR Nancy k uh, dot com and uh,
I'm working on the kids website,

animals United for Animal Welfare.

My old website, which still
exists, is speaking for spot.com.

So those are cool domain.

Yes.

Don't feel that that's, uh, a
variety of ways to catch up with me

and I always respond to questions.

Always,

Anke: always.

Wonderful.

Well, thank you so much.

And I'm, I'm like, I'm getting the
books now because I think they,

they really feel like, uh, mandatory
reading for any, for any dog.

Guardian who wants to be that advocate.

And I think that's, that's
what we're here for.

So thank you so much for You're welcome.

Nancy: You're welcome.

It's been a pleasure meeting

Anke: you.

Same, same.

Likewise.

Likewise.

Nancy: And by the way, I
love reading your substack.

Anke: Oh, thank you.

Thank you.

Nancy: They're great.

They're awesome.

Thanks so much for listening.

If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget
to subscribe, and leave a review so

other dog lovers can find the show.

If you haven't already, head
over to soul touched by dogs.

com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness
tips, recommendations, and personal

stories to warm your dog loving heart.

And if you know a pawsome human
you think I should interview,

I'd love an introduction.

Email me at Anke.

That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.