Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome Drayton.

I'm excited to have you here.

Drayton: Thanks.

I'm excited to be here.

I appreciate it.

Anke: Well before we Uh get started
let people know where in this

lovely world are you based and
what's your business for dogs?

Drayton: You got it.

I'm in Red Bank, New Jersey, which
is about 50 miles from New York

City and 50 miles from Philadelphia.

So I'm kind of like right
in the middle of New Jersey.

And I've been training and working
with dogs for about 24 years.

Started in 2000 as a dog walker in
New York City, went to the Academy

for Dog Trainers, got certified,
uh, took the fabulous course by Dr.

Susan Friedman, Living
and Learning with Animals.

Uh, I work with roughly 400 dogs a year,
uh, typically I have anywhere from three

to four puppy classes a week, and you
know, I do private sessions, um, anything

people need help with, uh, it doesn't
really matter as long as they want to do

it in a positive, force free, humane way.

That's how I train.

Then, uh, I'd be happy to work with them.

Uh, I don't have any dogs of my own at
the moment, but I've had three dogs,

uh, in my lifetime, all Pit Bulls.

And uh, back in 2009, I was the
first person to put out a documentary

about Pit Bulls called The Pit Bull
Hoax, which you can find on YouTube.

And I've also been in the movie
Beyond the Myth, which was another

great movie about read specific
legislation and the effects of that.

And uh, I have a very active
YouTube channel where I put out

videos on a regular basis about
positive reward based training.

Anke: I love that.

I love that.

So now you've got me
with the pities, right?

So it's such a discussion
all the time, you know?

So what pulled you towards that breed?

Drayton: Well, when I first got a
dog, um, I didn't know anything.

This was back in, uh, I
think it was like, what, 98?

You know, I just started to notice
there were people who I had known

in my life who were afraid of my
dog and I couldn't understand why.

So, as time went on, I just found more
and more information about, you know,

the culture of hating these dogs and
banning them and I said, Wow, there's

really something has to be done and
the best way to do that is to have

some sort of media presentation.

At the time, my ex wife was a
professional trainer and she had

access to some pretty legendary people
in the training and behavior world.

So I contacted them and said, Hey,
I'm making this documentary and

I'd like to know if you'd like to
speak about pitfalls and behavior.

So there had been, you know, a
decent amount of people advocating

for pitfalls at that point.

This is around 2012.

but nobody had really come into
the advocacy for Pitbull's with

behavior and discussing behavior.

I then discovered Dr.

I'm not doctor I'm sorry.

I discovered Karen Delese.

Who's an author, she wrote a fabulous
book called The Pit Bull Placebo,

and she basically studied dog bite
incidences for about 150 years, and

found that there was a criteria that
always repeats in part or total.

And that criteria is dogs kept for
guarding or protecting, they're not family

members, multiple dogs, dogs not spayed or
neutered, children left alone with dogs,

domestic violence, dogs running free,
and dogs chained or housed all the time.

If you look at any of the fatal or
lethal dog bite incidents, no matter

where they happen in the world, some
or all of that criteria is present.

There's never been a dog who's been
well trained, well cared for in a loving

family that's killed anybody, or, you
know, hurt someone from biting them.

And, you know, at the end of the
day, that's kind of what sparked

my interest in making the Pitbull
hoax, and just went on from there.

You know, I inspired another gentleman
to make a film called Guilty Till

Proven Innocent, and I was in the film
Beyond the Myth, which ended up being

coming on Netflix back in the day.

So, you know, there's been a lot of
movement towards helping Pitbulls and

Pitbull type dogs, but unfortunately,
uh, that stigma and that hate and

that prejudice seems to persist.

Anke: It certainly does, you know, so I'm
wondering do you have, do you have some

theory around that or like, you know,
you keep hearing this Um, you know, but

the doors really lock and whatever, you
know, so it's like are these people You

know attack their owner in the bedroom
or whatever, you know, like what?

There's these stories and you never
know whether they're true anyway,

but do you have a theory of why that?

There's a couple

Drayton: of Yeah, there's a couple
of things we can definitely,

uh, look at as truisms.

Number one, jaws don't lock.

That's been proven, you know, Through
anatomical research by veterinarians

that just what happens is is, you know,
if it is an actual pit bull dog They

do have very strong jaws and they you
know, they were bred to grab cattle

and hold them right their catch dogs
Initially pit bulls were created to do

farm work and hunting the fighting came
later And my theory on that is people

were bored back in the 1600s Right?

My joke is if we had video games
back then, maybe dog fighting

would have never happened.

But, you know, people are cruel
and they don't really think about

things in a humane way all the time.

They just have their own agenda.

As far as why the hate and the
prejudice continues, there's

always going to be people who hate
dogs and don't understand them.

And a lot of it is just
knee jerk panic policy.

Um, when you look at breed specific
legislation in America, every place

that it's been implemented, dog bites
haven't decreased, and obviously if

you have education over legislation
you can have your community much safer.

The problem is they would rather just
ban dogs, kill a bunch of innocent

dogs who've never done anything
wrong, they just look a certain way.

So my, my attitude towards it is the
more you educate, Then you don't have to

legislate, and breed specific legislation
doesn't solve anything anyway, right?

It's the over inclusive,
under inclusive theory, right?

You're gonna include a lot of dogs in
that band who will never bite anyone,

and you're gonna get a lot of dogs
who don't look like pit bulls, who may

be in danger of biting someone, and
they're not gonna be included because

They're a lab, or they're a shepherd.

So, you know, it always
boils down to this.

Behavior is in the environment,
and humans are the variable.

So, if the human is doing things
correctly, and they're responsible,

there's a really great chance
that the dog's never going to

get into any serious trouble.

And, you know, you mentioned, you know,
You know, a dog guardian being bitten

by their own dog, you know, or mauled.

Well, all I can say is number one,
what have you been doing with that dog?

Like, how are you treating this dog?

And then number two, are you
working with anybody that considers

themselves a professional and
what are they telling you to do?

So, sure, you know, dogs can bite
because they have teeth, right?

That's why they bite.

And fear is rooted, and
aggression is rooted in fear.

Fear is the underlying
cause for aggression.

So, you know, uh, when you look at
it logically, and you remove the

emotion, right, and you have some
empathy, dogs have the cognition

of three year old kids for life.

By the time they're about two.

So they're not up to no good.

They're doing things that dogs do.

Right?

And if a dog is in a really
bad situation, they may end

up doing something really bad.

Anke: Yeah, I mean, the breed
specific legislation just reminds

me that just recently there was
something going on in the UK as well.

So it's not even just dogs.

So it happens, it happens everywhere.

And there's, you know, people
fighting for their dogs, right?

Because there's a lot of, you have, this
dog is the biggest fluffball, you know,

cuddle bug, but just, he looks like
this, so he's going to be, so it's, it's.

Well, the other

Drayton: thing is, the other thing,
and I'm going to be making some media

about this because, you know, October is
Pitbull Awareness Month here in America.

I'm sure it extends around the world,
but, you know, one of the things that

I'm going to start reminding people
is that the media likes to create

monsters because when the media
creates a monster, they make money.

And, you know, you should never trust the
media about anything they say because they

lie, because they don't have credibility.

Any agenda for the truth.

They have an agenda to make money and
to create division because when they

create division, they make money, right?

And that's how the media works.

Um, you know, in America, we have a
publication called Sports Illustrated

and back in the eighties, they put a
pit bull on the cover of an issue and

said, beware of this dog, but then fast
forward to The Michael Vick incident.

Now they have the dog on the cover and
they're saying these are wonderful dogs.

It's about the people.

So it took, you know, almost 20
years for them to come around.

But the reason why they came
around isn't because all of a

sudden the media loves dogs.

No, they came around because
the zeitgeist, right?

The whole population was like,
Hey, Don't blame these dogs

at the Michael Vick kennel.

It's the people, you know, that
only lasted about five years and

then it all went back to, you
know, Oh, they're dangerous dogs.

So that's the message to the general
public is do not trust the media

about whatever they say, whether
they say it about dogs, they say

it about people, whatever they're
telling you, there's an agenda.

Anke: Yep.

Sound advice that one.

So now I'm curious, actually, the thing
that pops to mind is that, um, Since

I've started this show and this whole
project and really looking into, you

know, like groups and dog professionals,
there's a shit fight going on, right?

So between the, you know, balanced and
tough dogs need a tough hand and people

who say, well, no, that's crap, right?

So do you find you get a lot of pushback,
especially, you know, coming at you with

like, oh, well, pitbulls, you can't.

You know, you can't train
pitbulls with teeth.

Well, here's

Drayton: the thing.

I was also coming into dog culture with
Advocating for pitbulls and advocating

for positive reward based training
without the use of fear and pain.

I was doing it concurrently.

So I was one of the first people who
was really screaming from my lungs

saying, hey, stop hurting dogs, stop
causing them fear and pain, stop

shocking them, stop choking them.

Look at history.

Humans and dogs have been working
alongside each other since 20,

000 years before agriculture.

So before humans figured out, hey,
let's put seeds in the ground,

we had dogs helping us, right?

We had dogs working with us.

Before molded metal and
before electricity, dogs were

a partner in our evolution.

So why is it now?

We need to choke them and
shock them and blame them.

Dogs are innocent.

I don't want to get into the weeds, but
there is an area of mammal brains called

the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex.

And this job that the dorsal
lateral prefrontal cortex does is

it does the right wrong assessment.

Dogs don't really know right from wrong.

They know what's reinforcing,
what's not reinforcing.

Okay.

Again, as I said earlier, they have the
cognition of three year old kids for life.

So they're not doing things with a moral
imperative, and if anybody believes that,

then they are believing a falsehood, okay?

Do I get pushback?

Not really, I mean, I have, but, you know,
most people don't really mess with me.

Maybe it's just my vibe, they're
like, and I don't really care.

And, you know, I will tell people, well,
you know, at the end of the day, you

know, thank you for letting me know that
you want to cause dogs fear and pain.

Thank you for telling me that.

Now I know who you are.

Me?

I don't need to?

The other thing is, when you look
at actual legitimate animal trainers

who train animals that will kill
you, they don't use fear and pain.

So, you know, some positive
trainers have a saying, if you

wouldn't train a lion that way,
don't train a dog that way, right?

If you wouldn't, if you wouldn't
do it to a three year old,

don't do it to a dog, okay?

Fear is the underlying
cause for aggression.

So why do you want to create fear,
which could create aggression?

Secondly, if you have a dog who already
has a predisposition to being afraid,

whether it's from their genetics, so
if you have a guard dog breed like

a Rottweiler, a Chow Chow, a German
Shepherd, a Doberman, and let's say

they have a little bit more fear in
there, Why do you want to increase it?

Right?

You don't want to do that.

So I work with people and their dogs.

And in order for me to sleep well at
night, I have to go into situations no

matter where the people are and teaching
them how to be safe behaviorally and how

to be safe just in a general management,
pragmatic, everyday life with your dog.

Let's be safe.

Because then I know the dog
is going to stay sound, right?

Now, a lot of these trainers
who You know, use shock and

choke and they blame the dog.

My question to them would be,
why do you need to do it if

you can get it done without it?

Because I can, I can train dogs
without making them afraid, right?

Because all the legitimate behavior
people will agree, sure, you can

change behavior with shock and choke.

We're not saying you can't change
behavior, but what's left in its

place, what's left in its place
is an overly generalized fear.

And again, I don't even know if half these
pain trainers understand this, right?

That's the reason why it, quote,
works, because the dog has a

generalized fear to this chain.

The dog has a generalized fear
to this beep, because the beep

predicts here comes the shock.

Right?

See, I understand operant and
classical conditioning, inside and out.

I am not confused about the science of
animal behavior or behavior analysis.

I get it.

I wonder if they do because I think
that they're just choking and shocking

dogs, hoping the dog stops doing
something so the client will be happy.

But it's been proven.

You can look at a lot of studies.

Behavior stays in place and is much
more solid when there is positive

reinforcement and kind consequences.

I'm not saying I don't give dogs a
consequence to teach them, it's just kind.

So what I always tell my
clients is, if you get a parking

ticket, you're bummed out.

But what if the consequence was
they popped all of your tires?

What if you got there and your tires
were, that's pain, that's misery.

Now you got to have, you've got to
go get your car retreaded, right?

You got to get new tires.

So I will bum dogs out.

I will disappoint a dog, but I won't,
but I won't cause them fear and pain.

Anke: Yeah.

I mean, that makes, that
makes so much sense.

And it's, it's that, um, that part
of like, it's just like humans, you

know, like you can intimidate anybody
into submission, but that pent up

fear didn't come out somewhere else.

Drayton: Well, you can't intimidate
everybody and dogs are the same way.

There's some dogs who are like,
you know what, screw this.

I'm biting you and I'm
biting the next person.

So, you know, you know what those
trainers, those pain trainers

do, they say, Oh, there's
something wrong with that dog.

And they don't, they don't go back.

They quit, they quit.

Or if the client has been choking their
dog for a month and all of a sudden

it bites their kid and they call the
trainer, you know what the trainer does?

Oh, I'm not coming back.

Oh, I can't work.

Anke: The dog isn't trainable,
so the dog gets killed basically.

'cause I've

Drayton: had clients who've been in those
positions and then they contact me and

I'm like, well, you know, that tells
you about the character of that person.

You know, if I have a client call
me back six months later and say,

Hey, you know the dog's doing
X, Y, Z, I'm like, okay, great.

Let's get in there.

Let's retool the plan, gimme
some history, what's been going

on and let's give you some help.

Right?

But I don't have clients calling
me, telling me, Hey, you told me

to do this, so now my dog is worse.

Anke: Yeah, that makes sense.

I mean, that's the thing that winds
me up when these like TV personalities

and there's that there's a Spanish mini
me version of of a famous one and it's

that you can see well they just kind
of Stun the dog, shock the dog in the

moment, and I'm like, I don't really
want to know what happens when he's gone.

And the person's back alone with
their dog, you know, and I think

it, it makes it, it makes it worse.

Yeah, you're absolutely,

Drayton: you're absolutely right.

First of all, you wouldn't want to take
parenting advice from reality shows, and

you wouldn't want to, you wouldn't want
to take dog training advice from TV shows.

Anke: But people do, that's the thing.

I know, I

Drayton: went to Animal Planet twice.

to get a show, okay?

And I talked to no fewer than
nine different producers over the

course of 10 years to get a show.

Here's what I'll tell you
about people in entertainment.

They don't care about dogs.

They don't give one crap about dogs.

The welfare of dogs.

They don't care about
educating the general public.

All the people in entertainment
care about is, will I make money?

That's all they care about.

Because if they actually cared about
dogs, they would put out a number of

shows that could really help people.

And the first woman I met with at
Animal Planet, she was dead in the eyes.

Dead in the eyes, right?

Usually when I talk to people about
dogs, you get some sort of emotion.

Joy, sadness, interest, something.

She was just blank.

The next time I went up to Animal
Planet, I went with Jon Stewart.

Yes, that Jon Stewart.

Because I worked with him and his
family for about eight months.

And he brought me in.

And they still didn't give me a show.

But they had a little change over in
the, uh, You know, they had a little

changeover in the, uh, management at
Animal Planet, but the bottom line

is, if they really wanted to do it,
right, they could, but they don't care.

Right?

And they just don't.

That's why they keep putting on training
shows, and I use that word loosely,

but they keep putting shows out where
people are causing dogs fear and

pain, because they don't care at all.

And nobody can convince me they do care.

Anke: Well, I couldn't agree more.

Drayton: Actions speak louder than words.

Anke: I do agree, I do agree.

So, do you work with people locally, or
can people get hold of you online, or

what's the easiest way to get in touch?

Oh,

Drayton: yeah.

I mean, I work with people here in
New Jersey, but I've done a fair

number of Uh, remote consults.

I actually did a remote consult
with a woman in Russia about nine

years ago and was very successful.

But yeah, people can get a hold
of me through ModernDogTraining.

com and if they want to do a
remote consult, we can do that.

Anke: Awesome.

So, but that doesn't, like, you
don't have to have a pitbull,

like, you know, as you said in the
beginning, it doesn't really matter.

I work

Drayton: with every, every kind of, every
kind of dog that people have, you know,

I love all dogs and I want to help people
no matter what kind of dog they have.

Anke: Awesome.

Awesome.

Well, thank you so much.

Welcome.

Can I plug my

Drayton: new book?

Can I plug my new book?

Anke: Oh, hell yes, please.

Alright, so, um,

Drayton: I just put out a book.

It's called The Puppy Parent's Handbook.

It's really short.

You could probably read it in an hour.

Um, it's, uh, got everything you need to
help raise your puppy from house training

to general training to leash walking to
counter conditioning to help your puppy

with fears or stress or frustration.

So, uh, you know, it's moderately priced.

You can get it online
wherever they sell books.

It's available all around the world.

You can get it on Amazon.

You can get it on Kindle.

You can go to IngramSpark and
that will help you if you need

to get the book from overseas.

So check it out.

It's good stuff.

Anke: Awesome.

We're going to definitely, you
know, like do a big plug in the

show notes and then you slide to us.

Oh, for sure, for sure.

It goes on the bookshelf.

So definitely.

Cause I guess, you know, when somebody
is lucky enough that most, yeah,

most of mine have been puppies.

Yeah, there won't be any kind
of puppies when they came,

but, uh, it's kind of a tie.

It's the, if you get the chance to have
a dog as a puppy, I think it's that

beautiful opportunity to, to get in
some, you know, some education early.

Drayton: Yeah.

You put your imprint on
the dog, which is great.

But one of the things I talk
about in the book right away

is should you even get a puppy?

Because there's a lot of leg work, right?

There's a lot of little extra
work that you have to do when

you get a dog who's eight weeks.

There's two fear periods during
the critical development period.

Some puppies are really mouthy.

Some puppies have some separation issues.

There's the leg work for house training.

But if you're willing to do the
work, it's a great experience.

And I encourage people to get a puppy.

One of the things that is kind of, you
know, I don't know, I don't want to say

controversial, but some people feel like,
you know, you should never buy a dog.

And my attitude is It doesn't matter
where the dog comes from, as long as the

people are committed and they love the
dog, they do the work, they stand by the

dog, they're helping the dog every day.

There's plenty of dogs who cost thousands
of dollars and they wind up in a shelter.

And there's plenty of dogs
who were found on the street.

And they find their way into a great home.

So again, it always
goes back to the people.

Are the people doing what they need to do?

Are they getting the right information?

Is that information
based in humane training?

And if that's the case, then every
puppy, every dog is a rescued dog.

Anke: Oh, I love that.

I love that so much.

Thank you so much.

This is absolutely delightful.

And, um, yeah, let's provide
different programs for puppies.

Drayton: Okay.

Sounds great.

Thanks for having me.

I really appreciate it.

Anke: Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.