Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Grisha.

I always love, starting on
a bit of a giggle so it has

everybody a little bit relaxed.

So I'm really excited
to have you here today.

So the good old questions.

Where in this lovely world are you
and what's your business with dogs?

Grisha: Well, I am in the west
coast of the United States in

a place that we call Oregon.

Um, it's the land of the Saslaw people.

So I live on a river, um,
and yeah, it's beautiful.

Sunny day.

And what was your
question besides for that?

Where am I?

Anke: What?

Grisha: Your

Anke: business with dogs.

Oh, right on the dog shows,
or let's just touch on dogs.

Grisha: I'm like, I'm like a dog.

Um, so yes.

So behavior is my specialty.

I developed bat behavior adjustment
training, which is a technique

for socializing dogs for either,
um, socializing dogs who have

already developed reactivity or,
you know, trauma or some sort of

bad experience or, um, puppies.

So it's basically like how to teach
social skills to dogs through this

really, um, slow, steady, careful dance
where dogs have a lot of power, a lot of

agency of choosing where they get to go.

Anke: So I have an online

Grisha: school and uh, books
and that sort of thing.

Anke: Yeah.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Now.

I'm obviously curious what, what that
stands for and also like how it's,

how the approach is different from,
you know, what people might know from

puppy classes and you know, and other
training methods they've come across.

So like, what sparked you to create it?

Because obviously you weren't
happy with what was there?

Grisha: Right, exactly.

So that stands for Behavior
Adjustment training.

And the idea is that we adjust
the, the behavior, but we don't,

like, we change the behavior,
but we don't change the reason.

So the behavior exists for a reason.

Like dogs are barking because
they need distance or they

need something to move closer.

Like it's usually they're trying to
change their environment somehow.

And so rather than saying, we're just
gonna give you a treat, or we're gonna

punish you, which punishment isn't my jam.

But rather than those two schools,
if not, it's really about how can we

help the dog know how to, in like to
interact with their environment in ways

that are also like work for us humans.

So, um, so that's one way it's
majorly different is that it's not

treat heavy, although we certainly
use treats in certain parts of it.

Um, and punishment definitely
has no place at that.

And, um, yeah, so it's, I
developed it because of.

I had, let's see, I was teaching,
this was in, I had a dog school in

Seattle before I started traveling
the world and then doing online work.

And it was, I had probably four
aggressive dog classes a week.

Um, so classes, four dogs
with aggression problems.

And um, I had my own dog, peanut,
my soulmate dog, and he was still

reactive, so he was barking at
people, barking at other dogs.

And it's one of the most
embarrassing things, right?

To have a dog and be like, I'm the on,
if you don't train, don't talk to me.

Because I'm like too busy shoving treats
in my dog's face right now to talk to you.

And um, and so, you know, I had
worked through his reactivity quite

a bit and in terms of like, if he was
in working mode, so like if he was.

Actively engaged with me, like
sitting or laying down or whatever.

Like he could look trained, uh,
but he was not happy like he was.

It's kinda like if you go to work and you
hate your job and you're like, I am here

and I'm gonna have that smile on my face,
but like, I really don't wanna be here.

And that's how he was with
other dogs and people and.

That's a really, like,
no, that's a icky place.

Like I don't want that for him
and I didn't want it for me.

And so, you know, I kept going to
workshops and conferences and that

kind of thing and, and cobbled
together this, this way of being that.

And then sort of took a, a quantum
leap of agency, of giving a dog more

control where I'm like, you know what,
if we just give a chance to figure

this out from a really safe distance.

Because in the, like, socialization,
the way it works in the first place

is like, you know, they're assessing,
um, you know, am I safe here?

What do I do here?

And if you're, if you're too close, they
go to their knee jerk reaction of like,

I don't feel safe here, and then I'm
gonna bark or flee or freeze or whatever.

And, but if you're at the right
distance, then they're like, oh.

Well, let me think about this.

Actually.

I have these other tools.

I can sniff the ground, I can
look away, I can be curious.

Uh, and so what happens over time is
like if you as a human are sort of

like managing the distance and all, I
can explain that, uh, how, but if we

manage the distance so that they're
kind of always surfing at the edge of

like curiosity and they're never, or
ideally not over the line of like, oh

my God, what am, you know, panic attack.

What am I doing here?

Then they start to, to, you know,
come up with a whole new set of

behaviors that, that, you know, works.

So we, you know, they look like
the dog that we want them to look

like, where they're like, oh, hi,
there's another dog, and let's go

sniff and, you know, do the things.

Hmm.

So, and he ended up being, so my dog
peanut ended up being, um, a therapy

dog to go to assisted living facilities.

And like, he enjoyed that.

And we had, you know, a new dog in our
home and he was like, you know, good.

Good friends and, and could,
you know, just be in the world.

Um, and it was, yeah, it was, it
was like one of the most satisfying

experiences of my life to have him be
able to go to these other places and,

and not have to micromanage him anymore.

And it does take time.

Anke: Yeah.

So, oh, I love that.

I love that because it is, it is
heartbreaking to see, you know, when you

think they kind of, it's overwhelming
and there's sort of, you know, we don't

know how, how to help 'em, you know?

It is.

Mm-hmm.

And this, I mean, I
guess that's the thing.

Like if you're a trainer, the pressures
on, you know, the judgment and people

would be quite like, I don't know whether
it's true, but you definitely feel it.

Grisha: Right, exactly.

I might be projecting, right?

It's probably more in my head than
theirs, but you never know, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anke: I mean, it is true though.

You know, if I'm like, oh, you're
a dog trainer, I, I kind of think,

well, I kind of would expect your dog.

Grisha: Right.

Yeah, it is, it is funny.

It's like that, I dunno if
you have that phrase, the

cobbler's children have no shoes.

Yes.

Yeah.

So yeah.

I mean, my, I, my husband is a woodworker
and our cabinets are not perfect,

and our dogs are also not perfect.

And that's okay.

Like they're the amount of
perfect, they're not, yeah.

Anke: Whatever.

Yeah.

I mean, it's not about, I don't know.

I never think, like, I've never like.

The idea of obedience, I always thought
like, I want you to listen to me

enough to be safe so I can call you.

You don't get run over by a car.

Like it's about, it's
about, it's about that.

So how did you even get started
to get into that profession?

I.

Grisha: Well, before I was a dog
trainer, I was a mathematician.

And, uh, yeah, and then I got
a, I was teaching at a college

or university and I got a dog.

And, um, before I could get that dog,
my partner at the time, he said, well,

we need to read some books about dogs.

And so I read like 50 books
in one summer and wrote little

reports about each one 'cause.

At the time I was a
graduate student as well.

And so, um, uh, yeah, so we got a dog
and, uh, I, I just loved the, just the

complexity of behavior and also just
the, the capacity to understand like I.

If I do this, they will understand
this and so like it, yeah, it was

just a really good fit for me.

And then, so I volunteered at the shelter
and did that for a while in the classes.

Well, first in the, in the shelter, like
just training the dogs one-on-one and then

started volunteering in the classes and
then eventually started my own business.

And then kind of like
siphoned my, my time away.

So I was like gradually teaching
less math and more dogs and

then eventually took the plunge.

Anke: Wow.

So what was the experience like?

Was it what you thought it would be?

Because know, most of the time
when people feel to sort of start

their first business, you're like.

It's all exciting and then
it kind of hits you, right?

So, yeah,

Grisha: so I mean, there's
definitely parts of it that were

like, this is exactly what I wanted.

And I mean, I've been doing it for
20 years, so it's obviously, I.

Plenty of what I, I wanted.

Um, and there was definitely
a surprise in terms of timing.

Like I thought I was doing dog training
nights and weekends because that's

when I had time to do dog training.

And then it turned out like
that's when everybody else also

has time to do dog training.

And so for many years it was like
only nights and weekends, right?

Like classes and private
lessons and things.

And then I got enough experience
that, that I could sort of like

carve a niche as like, you know.

I, I only work in the day and people
would then have to hire me in the daytime.

Um, but yeah, there was
definitely lots of nights and

weekends, so that was a surprise.

Um, also like the, this kind of vision
of like, you get to take your dog with

you all the time, like that's not true.

Um, I mean, you can, like if your
dog is like the helper dog for ag,

aggression, aggression, but um, it's
not really great for them, honestly.

And so like, there's less of that too.

So at least for me,

Anke: oh.

Yeah, that makes, that makes sense.

So do you still work in person
or is it all online now?

Grisha: It's, it's all online now.

Um, every so often I'll do, like, I'll
work with a local person, just, you

know, because I can, because you can.

And just to keep my chops up a little bit.

Yeah.

And, and I usually tell them though that
like, I don't do it for money locally

because, um, I have to say, because I
don't like the responsibility of it.

So I'm fine like meeting with them for
several sessions, but I'm just like.

You know what?

I don't wanna have to be somewhere
at a specific time anymore.

It's just how my brain works.

And so I love the freedom of working
through the computer now and, and

also, um, the way a lot of what
we do is train other dog trainers.

I.

And, um, and so we, you know, we have
like lots of different classes with, um,

different experts from around the world.

I have lots of classes in there as well,
and then we do certification and things.

And so I'm really passionate
about that area of it.

And, um, yeah, so I don't
work locally as much anymore.

Anke: No, I can, I can totally understand
because it's like the, the convenience

of working online and, and it's also,
I mean, training dog trainers has this

leveraged way, so you're not just helping
one dog, you know, you're helping the

person who can help hundreds of dogs.

Right.

So it's almost that.

Yeah.

Right.

Grisha: Yeah.

It's like that super benefit effect.

Like, if I help somebody Yeah.

Then they're, I know the ripple
effect of their career is

like, I've helped tons of dogs.

Yeah.

And that does feel really good.

And I also, um, when I started
this, I lived in Seattle and then

I moved to Alaska for five years.

And now I live in coastal
Oregon in the middle of nowhere.

And so that is great for
my dogs, which is nice.

And me, and there's like
basically no customers here.

So if I had to do it locally, I
would be a very, very, um, yeah.

Poor dog, dog.

Yeah,

Anke: yeah.

Grisha: Some places do

Anke: that.

Well, that makes, that makes,
that makes perfect sense.

So, so the, the training courses
you offer, are they mostly around,

uh, the bat, or, or is it, is it
like a, um, a broader catalog or?

Grisha: It is a, yeah,
the good, good question.

It's a broad catalog.

There's probably, I think about
50 of the classes I have taught.

Um, it's got 150, 160 classes I think
about now, and so a good chunk of

them are either bat or bat philosophy.

I would say probably maybe like
30 of the classes are about that.

And, um, and then the rest are all the
general things that we run into with dogs.

And it's similar to what you said in
terms of we're not about obedience,

we are about helping dogs and
people live together in community.

And so that means like how to, like I
have a class that I, that I taught at a.

I was like a keynote speaker at a
conference in the uk and we recorded

that, and that's on the website too.

And it's a class about how to
track your dog, like how to pay

attention to their emotional state.

Um, and so that's a lot of what we do.

Anke: Yeah.

So what is the most common
thing people come to you for?

Like if they would say, I would
aggression, you know, like, yeah.

Yeah, I mean personally I'm thinking
like to, to seek your help for, yeah.

Grisha: Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, I mean I think it's there.

There's lots of different
way, different reasons.

I mean, I think a lot of the
people come for community.

They really are.

A lot of the dog trainers, it's a very
lonely field because a lot of times

you're like the only dog trainer in
your town, or the only positive dog

trainer, at least in like a certain area.

Right.

And then like sometimes if people, even
if there are more, then sometimes there's

a weird, you know, competition thing.

Um, not always, which is good.

But um, so yeah, we just have this
really lovely community and it's

like one of the safest places on the
internet where people are just like,

we're here to lift each other up.

We're always kind.

It's a diverse space.

So it's like.

Um, so that's, I would say one of probably
the main reason now that like, beyond the

curiosity of how do I learn all about all
these different dog training things is

like, how can I get support as a, as a,
um, as an individual and as a dog trainer?

'cause we also have classes
like How to Human is one of

the classes that's in there.

Anke: Yeah.

Which is, so would, if I'm coming and
I'm not a doc professional, could I

take your programs or would you say like
they're specifically geared to towards

people who wanna do this professionally?

Grisha: So both.

Um, so yes, you could totally do
it if you're not a professional

dog trainer and certification piece
that you would just ignore, um, of

certain, like, you know, filling out
forms and taking tests and things.

Um, but all of the classes, I,
I, I appreciate being able to

speak to whoever is in the room.

And so the people we bring in do
the same thing where it's like.

If we use a fancy word, there's
usually some like regular

definition that goes with it.

And, and you know, there's a couple of
business classes, so there's some classes

that are really more specific for dog
trainers, but we have some, a set also

that's very specifically for the public.

Um, so it's super basic like.

I just got a puppy.

What do I do kind of class.

Um, so we have one called Empowered
Puppy raising, for example.

Uh, that's really great.

Um, sort of step by step.

And it, and it goes along with a puppy
class, like if you're taking a puppy

class in person for that social aspect,
it's nice to still have some structure

in theory that like might be different
from the local trainer to sort of add in.

Anke: So from, from
anybody who, who seeks.

Oh no, I was, I was just kinda wondering
like for anybody who seeks help from

a dog behaviorist or dog trainer,
like, so would you say reactivity

aggression is the biggest kind of issue?

Or what, what are, what's sort of the
most typical thing that people seek out?

Helpful for?

Grisha: Yeah, I, I mean it's, I,
my, I'm a little skewed because

my aggression is my focus, right?

And so that's definitely the bread
and butter of what comes to me.

And I would say like, probably for
most trainers, it's either that

or sort of like a impulse control.

Like the dog is just like, I don't
know what the rules are here.

You know, like, help me
understand like what we're doing.

Um, so yeah, that's, those are the
kind of the two things is either

dogs who are just like, it's a
more of a translation problem.

'cause they know how to sit, they know
how to lay down, they just don't know

when we want it and why they should.

Want to do it in that moment.

Um, and that the, the more of
a, almost like a therapy, right?

Trauma informed, attachment informed,
like how do we help the dog be in

their body in this space without
feeling like they have to go bark at

everything or, you know, run away.

Anke: Yeah, I, I mean, I guess
that, that makes a lot of sense

to me because if you, it's just
like people, you know, if you are.

Freaked out, you know, yes, I know how
to sit, but I might not be able to do

it when I'm like, you know, so, yeah.

I mean, so would you, yeah, it's,
would you also look at the other

end of the lesion, I respect?

Grisha: Absolutely.

Yeah.

So in fact, we have, um, specifically
with the leash, ironically, we have a

class called Stop Pulling, and most of
my classes are about like what to do.

I just.

Decided to call that stopping
pulling because that's what

most people search for.

Um, but the, in the stop pulling class,
we actually have a whole section about

glimmers, about how to teach people
to, um, have a cue, a specific way to

tell their nervous system that they're
safe and that they can settle down.

Because dogs are
co-regulating with us, right?

They're, we, when we're.

In a family, or even when we're
just sort of next to each other,

our nervous systems are regulating
together just like a flock of birds.

Like you scare one and then
all of a sudden everybody's

like, bah, and they leave.

And same thing with dogs
is that they're like.

Ah, okay.

That person is calm, so the chances
of it being dangerous have just

gone down a little bit, right?

Because they're looking
at us for information.

And so if we're on edge
all the time, that's hard.

So a glimmer is the opposite
of what's called a trigger.

So a trigger is like the thing
that that reminds them that

they're in danger or whatever.

So they start barking.

And a glimmer is, is a sign of
safety or belonging or whatever

else that we might need as.

As humans as well.

And so I teach people to, to do a practice
in different places to generalize it

just like we do with dog training, of,
of telling themselves that they are safe

and then doing a breathing exercise.

And so then that verbal cue of your
safe or a hand signal of hand on heart,

for example, becomes a signal that,
that they are, and so their nervous

system can calm down a little bit.

Anke: Mm, I can see that totally.

There's like be very, um, videos on
how helpful because it's, it can be

like, you know, as you might imagine,
these are my four who have crossed the

bridge by now, but, but the two boys,
they, you know, also the environment

we're living in, so they, and I like
little Leo, he got bitten when he was

11 months old and he was never quite the
same with, with, you know, with Right.

Male dog, big male dogs
in confined spaces.

He was fine on the beach,
you know, when there's space.

And he was fine when he is off lead,
but like when we would walk in the

little alleyway, you know, and I
could really see, and I knew it

like rationally that I'm like, I'm
scanning the horizon, like I'm tense.

But I also know the moment, like how
am I supposed to re relax if I know

perfectly well in the next corner?

This neighbor's dog
could be be right here.

You know?

So it was like, it's really like knowing
that he isn't gonna be relaxed, you know?

And I can do, so it's like, it's hard
to break that cycle, you know, when

you think like, I know he's gonna go
mental much when there's a dog, so I'm

tense, then that's not gonna help him.

And so we can hype each other
up, you know, the entire time.

So I think a breathing
excellent like that would've.

Probably really helped
to at least calm one.

Yeah.

1, 1, 1, 1 of us.

Yeah.

More

Grisha: calm baseline at least.

So that, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and you know, there's, there's a
skillset part of it too, of like, if you

are, you know what to do in that scenario.

So, you know, we would rehearse.

The, the U-turn, for example, so
that there is a like, here's what

I do in the situation so that like,
that part of your brain can be

satisfied that I know what I will do.

And then the other part is like, and now
that I know that I really am safe, let's

at least tell the nervous system that too.

Um, and also things like it might
require conditioning the dog to wear a

muzzle so they're comfortably muzzled.

And so that if everything did go
wrong, everybody would be safe.

Or it may be, um.

Yeah, just there's different
things that, that, that can

be done in those situations.

And, and like I've, I've
worked with dogs in Spain.

The, the roads are very narrow in
some places, like the Simon Road, it's

like a sidewalk with, but it's a road.

Yeah.

It's very tiny.

Anke: Yeah.

I mean, especially while I was living.

Was the historic part of town where
literally like I was living on the

wide road and I could touch both walls
if I stretched my arms out, you know?

So that was like the main road, you know?

So yeah, there wasn't very far to go if,
you know, if somebody would cross you.

It was definitely a tight space.

That's why we're not living there anymore.

So,

Grisha: so, yeah, I was gonna
say, that's also part of the

thing is like choosing, right?

What's actually, where can the dog
really be successful and where is it

more just like living in a war zone
that's, it's constantly going to

re-trigger them and you, uh, yeah.

And we do have a class called
Survival Skills for that kind of

scenario of like, if you have a dog
and how do you get through like,

everyday life without, you know.

So, 'cause bat is really like
long-term kind of therapy ish.

And then survival skills is like how Yeah.

How to just at least not
have a terrible day today.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

There's, there's even an
additional one called Urban Bat

that, uh, Vivian Ourian did.

And uh, yeah, so we have, uh, all
those, like, we have this joke around, I

dunno if you remember the old Microsoft
commercials, or maybe they're still

happening, but that says like, there's
a, you know, there's an app for that.

Um, or maybe it's the
Apple has that anyway.

Like, so we say there's a class for that.

'cause every, everything that, you
know, we've been doing this long

enough that any questions, there's
almost always a class for that.

Anke: I love that.

I love that.

So where can people go find those classes?

Like where can they go?

They go, I need a class,
I need the survival class.

So where are we gonna send people?

Grisha: Yeah, so send them
to grisha stewart.com.

Uh, so just my name and then I also just,
I have to put a plug into another project

I'm working on called Stellar Village.

And so if you really wanna work on the
human side of things, this is, it's a

separate online community space that,
uh, I founded and I'm now a part of.

Co-owner of, and yeah, so Stellar
Village, it's a folk school for the,

the skills of belonging and getting
our own nervous system to be relaxed.

Anke: Wow.

I love that.

So we're gonna pop that link
down below here as well.

So, because obviously we are
part of the puzzle there, right?

So we, we can't just only
work on the dog, you know, so.

Yeah.

Grisha: Yeah.

Awesome.

I think that's my e as.

Right was to go from this sort of like
more like just train the dog to like, oh

wait, actually help the dog live with us
and like, and then train the human side.

And now I'm really like, you know what?

If humans would just have a society
where we could get along a lot better,

it would be, it would just like naturally
flow to the how we work with dogs.

So.

That makes

Anke: perfect sense to me.

Thank you so much.

It was an absolute delight.

You're welcome.

And, um, yeah, I'll definitely
pop those links below.

So with, with that wealth of, of knowledge
for trainers and, you know, dog lovers

and we can make this a, a better place.

Thank you.

Let's do that.

Yeah.

Take care.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
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