Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome Kathy.

Welcome back Helen.

Welcome.

Thank you.

We

Helen: are delighted

Anke: to be here.

Helen: I'm really excited to be here.

Thank you so much for having us,

Anke: and I'm very excited to
have you because we have a very

specific, exciting reason for it.

But I'll let, um, you start out
with, let people know where in

this lovely world you're based and
what's your business with dogs.

Kathy: Kathy, you go

Anke: first.

Kathy: Okay, I'll go first.

Just 'cause my side is the young side.

I guess that it begins
with the young side.

Yes.

So, so Helen and I have just, uh,
written a new book called Old Dog.

New Dog.

And what that means, we're talking
about as your beloved dog is

starting to age sometimes that makes
you think about, Ooh, is it time?

Should we get a new puppy
now or is it too late?

Is this a good time?

We're not really sure.

Um.

We both get that question.

Um, I'm the puppy side of that question
and Helen gets it from the other side.

Anyway, so yeah, my expertise is in
puppies, so I, um, I have a, I'm a

dog trainer, certified professional
dog trainer and with my own business,

and I do specialize in puppy hood.

I also foster puppies.

That's kind of how this all got started,
is we have fostered 250 rescue puppies.

Our family has super fun.

Everyone's sort of like, oh, what is that?

It is to me a total delight.

I just, I love it.

I love to take the moms and
who have landed in a shelter.

Maybe they're pregnant, maybe
they've had their babies, maybe

they're just a week old, and I love
to give them the safety they need.

To settle in, relax and
nurture these babies.

And then of course we nurture them too.

Have a great time, get them hooked
up with other owners and that.

That's originally actually how I got
into dog to being a professional dog

trainer was because I was helping
all the adopters through puppy hood.

You know, I hand over this wiggly
little guy, he's so cute, it's great.

And then three days later, the people are.

Calling me like, what have I done?

So I started helping them through
puppy hood that way, and then studied

and studied, became a dog trainer.

And um, and I love it.

It's really fun.

I think puppy hood gets
a bad rap, um, lot.

It can be fantastic and joyful.

And it is often not because people
have funky little expectations that

are, uh, that are ruining their
time in Puppyhood and frankly,

their puppy time in Puppyhood.

So I like to help get everybody
oriented so that it can be.

The lovely experience that,
that I know it can be.

So that's me.

And now here's Helen.

Helen: Um, so I am Helen St.

Pierre.

I am the, uh, founder and executive
director of a nonprofit found,

uh, nonprofit right here in
my, uh, home called Old Dogs.

Go to Helen, which is a 5 0
1 C3 here in New Hampshire.

Um, and we've had old dogs
go to Helen now for about.

Seven years.

It's seven years in August.

Um, but I've been in the animal and canine
professional world, world for 23 years

and I started my career in shelter work,
um, and was a certified vet tech for,

and did have been sort of in the behavior
and animal field my entire career.

Um.

But realized after doing a lot of
work that Kathy was doing, you know,

most of us dog trainers are in and
out of the shelter world a lot.

We get our, we bring
our work home with us.

Let's just put it that way.

That, um, something that was
really missing was people

wanting to bring home the.

Sickest oldest dogs, um, you know,
and I started bringing them in and

giving them a wonderful end of life.

And then, uh, letting them
pass and then doing it again.

And slowly what happened is, uh,
people wanted to help contribute.

At that point, we, Jake, my husband
and I, were doing it completely out

of pocket, and then our phone started
to ring and we started to get all

kinds of really complex medical cases.

And it's sort of like snowballed,
let's just put it that way.

Um, and senior dogs have always
been a huge piece of who I am.

I've always had a senior dog in my home.

Um, and it wasn't until my
personal senior dog Merlin passed.

That I realized just what the
presence of a senior dog in a

multi-generational household with
senior animals in and around can do for

the younger animals in the household.

And so, um, it was kind of like, it,
it's been a very organic, slow build.

And now I have.

14 senior hospice dogs.

In my, uh, sanctuary, we have senior
and hospice horses, goats, pigs.

I mean, basically you name it.

We just took in a 14-year-old
hospice main coon this weekend.

We do anything old and.

Sick and potentially bald with
no teeth and smells really bad

is welcome at our home any day.

Um, and so that's me,
that's where I come in.

Um, but I, what I love the most about what
Kathy's saying is about how she's like, I

want the mamas with the babies is like the
exceptional amount of work that that is.

And it, I'm on the other end of
like the exceptional amount of

work, of the end of life, but.

Both involve a lot of poop.

Kathy: That's so true.

That's what unites us really, is we
have a lot of poop and pee happy.

We clean up a lot of

Helen: poop and pee.

Kathy: Yeah.

Anke: For different reasons.

That is so funny.

I love that.

I love that.

Actually, it's really interesting
because when I, when I just heard

you, it's like I actually do have
exactly that mix in my house now.

I have a 3-year-old.

Massive girl.

And, uh, and Mrs.

Ada is now 12, 12 and a bit 12 and a half.

Yeah.

Okay.

And, uh, I really, I, I always felt
it was a luxury to have the two

together because, I mean, all I, all
my dogs came to me as puppies, right.

But the last one, it
felt I didn't have to.

Right.

So I mean we had some other lucky
sort of circumstances in the sense

that she came from a farm environment.

So she basically, by
accident, came toilet trained.

So we brought her home and she
was like, okay, got in her,

well that this massive crate.

'cause I knew she was gonna be big and
there was this tiny little fluff ball

and in the big cushion and she was just
wedging out there relaxing, like sleeping.

I'm like, and then all
of a sudden she gets up.

And that little bear, like she just
sort of wobbles through the door,

goes outside where there's some grass
and peace and we're like, okay, this

is what you think the way this goes.

You just keep doing what you're doing.

That was toilet training for us.

Right.

She just was used to peeing on
grass, so that's what she did.

You know, she Well, and I didn't, she
had one accident in the house, like

Kathy: that's it.

I do suspect that also in your
house, because you have those

other dogs, the scent is outside.

And so this is one of the things that
really is pretty guaranteed, is that your

potty training generally goes a little
bit faster with a puppy if you have any

adult dog who is fully house broken in
your house, because that scent is so

powerful and if it is in the right spot,
it's gonna be working in your favor.

So

Anke: yeah, no, totally.

And then also the crazy play.

You know, when she was just like.

She took all of that with the patient
of the saint, you know, so, so, yeah.

You know, they're still going
strong, so, you know, here we go.

And, uh, yeah.

So I'm really curious.

I mean, I can totally see how, you know,
lots of poop at the end, at the beginning.

And, and how did this idea of
actually writing a book together,

how did that can come about?

I would imagine it's not just
like, okay, front part is about pp,

about is about how did you.

Kathy: We

Helen: take it away, Kathy.

Kathy: Okay.

Okay.

So we both were, um, presenting
at the, at a dog conference.

A lot of people are surprised to find
there is such a thing as a dog conference.

There are dog conferences
and we were presenting, um,

I was presenting on puppies.

Helen was presenting on oldies,
um, at the Legs Conference.

Kim Brophy's, um, ethology based group,
uh, is the Family Dog Mediation group.

And so we were, uh, both presenting
on those things and we both listened

to each other's presentations and were
like, Hey, hang on, because there was

so much symmetry there and there was.

Just, we were both
grounded in the same stuff.

We're talking about the same things.

And um, so basically we came
up to each other after those,

uh, after those presentations,
we were like, you know what, no

seriously, we should write a book.

Because also, not only are the
things we talk about very similar,

but we both get that question.

Um, and the answer.

Is complicated and, um, you know, uh,
sometimes it's, as you describe, which

is it worked out beautifully for you.

Your older dog was
interested in doing that.

Sometimes it's, um, a lot rockier
and everyone hopes for the dream.

Helen and I both love the overlap.

We love the idea of your old dog.

Um.

Um, setting the stage and helping
teach and how, and you love the

idea of a relationship between the
two of them, but it doesn't always

go as beautifully as you described.

And so we, um, both get that question all
the time, as do many vets and trainers.

We've looked and looked.

There is no resource about this.

There are plenty of dog, plenty of
books on puppies, including mine.

Um, and then there are plenty
of books on oldies, but there.

Is not a little resource that
you can look to, to help assess,

wait a sec, should I do this?

Is this a good idea for me right now?

And if you've just done it a little
guide to help you smooth the way and,

uh, help it turn into this scenario that.

That you have just described.

So what about, what,
what did I forget, Helen?

Helen: No, nothing.

I mean, that's exactly where it,
it, you know, originated from.

I think that something that was
really important for me with

listening to Kathie's talk and
then knowing Ka through her.

I had seen her book.

Prior, and it was amazing, was also,
um, knowing that she was on the same

wavelength that I was in assessing
quality of life and how we evaluate

what I call quality of death because,
um, you know, there's a huge.

Disconnect for a lot of people on
how we measure whether an animal is

actually living life to their fullest.

And I'm not just talking about
senior animals, I'm talking

about younger animals too.

And that was really important to
me in our collaboration, was that

we both were on the same page in
helping people really start to broaden

their perspective and ideas of what.

A good life should look like
as well as, which we talk about

in the book, a good death.

And, um, so it was, to me
it was like a no brainer.

It was just, it needed to happen
and it did, it needed to happen.

And it did an honest,

Anke: know each other
personally before Right.

No

Kathy: knew of each other.

We knew of each other.

And see, I kid you not, we
basically hugged when we

met, we were like, oh my God.

And then we did sort of outline the
book over the coffee break there.

Yeah.

And I'm not, and that was in December.

We.

The publisher said good idea in like
January, and the manuscript was done

in July, and that is very, very fast.

And I'm telling you, it just felt like
it just rolled off of us because this

stuff has been in both of our heads
for a really long time and it made so

much sense to marry these two topics,
help people think about these two ends

of the age spectrum at the same time.

What's it gonna take for you to do this?

Well, those, these are both.

Beautiful stages.

These are very intense stages, or
they can be very intense stages.

And so we don't always know when we
look on paper, like if we see you, if

you describe your house and describe
what your older dog is like and kind

of what your household is like, and
whether you have a fence and whether

you have room in your house to make a
little puppy corner or a senior square.

Um.

We're still not really gonna
know because nobody's gonna know.

E every dog is a unique individual.

All these families are unique individuals.

We don't know how it's
gonna roll until we see it.

We can guess and we
can help you set it up.

Um, and then we kind of need to watch
and adjust and what it will take for you.

It might be lovely.

The older dog might just
be like, you know what?

This is what I've been waiting for.

I love this.

I love passing this off to this new puppy.

And the puppy may be strangely,
actually, like my little pork chop,

the little, little rescue you were
talking about, who's in my house

until yesterday, might be one of
those puppies who just has a sense and

does modulate himself without even.

Needing much direction from the older dog.

You might get that dream scenario.

You also might not, you also might get the
older dog who is like, are you kidding me?

This is the last thing I wanted.

What do you mean you
thought I wanted a friend?

This is awful.

Uh, this, this little thing is biting
me and jumping on me and all I wanna

do is nap in the sun and this pu
and you might get the kind of puppy

who takes no direction really from
the other dog in the beginning.

And so that means.

This decision depends on
how much bandwidth you have.

The humans in the house have to have the
bandwidth to manage this on a practical

level because if that puppy's bursting
with energy, it's up to you then not.

You cannot just make the older dog,
uh, you know, entertain the bup.

And you also need to have the
emotional bandwidth because

it's emotional to have a puppy.

And it's very emotional to have a
beloved old dog who is getting older.

And you might have some.

Decisions to make.

So that's, that's you.

That's you, Helen.

Helen: Yeah.

No, I mean that's, you said it Kathy.

It's perfect, perfect way to put it.

Anke: It's actually interesting now,
when I would look back, when, when little

Leah came, uh, Kai was still alive as
well, and he probably, well, it worked

out for all of them because Kai, it was
really funny the way we brought the day.

We brought her home.

He was actually the one who was like, oh.

Oh, who is that?

Right?

Versus the other girl goes.

Take this thing away.

What is this?

Right.

Yeah.

So, so that was the initial reaction.

But then after a couple of
days, I think she nipped him

in the nuts a couple of times.

So he then no longer wanted
anything to do with her.

Right.

But the thing was, because the
other one then go, oh, I think

I like you, and stepped in.

He could step out and have nothing
to do with, you know, and then.

Like he, he wasn't doing anything against
her, but he was just like, when she would.

The other one had stepped in, so
there was that, you know, he had

somewhere to go, so he didn't, he
wasn't forced to to deal with it.

Poor thing, you know?

But it was really funny because he
initially was the one who was more

open initially, but then, like, it
literally shifted in a couple of days.

So I can totally see in.

A friend of mine literally had
a conversation the other day.

She has a, a, like a big ter.

Very funny 'cause she's
very little, right?

And, and so the dog always
looks bigger than her in photos.

It's quite funny.

But then she got a puppy and now the
big dog is like seven, eight years old.

And that's, she's found somebody else
to take care of the puppy because,

you know, she, you know, all of a
sudden, like she can't, like she was

on the couch now and now that little
thing is in, in there everywhere.

So it's like he doesn't cut off.

Well, he's got kicked out of daycare
and stuff, so, you know, so she hasn't

got the bandwidth for both of them.

Like, and she didn't expect
this to be, you know, such

a, such a, such an upheaval.

And also the other, the older dog isn't
happy at all, you know, so you can

take this thing away from me, you know?

So that's definitely a case
where it hasn't worked out.

So it isn't all of a sudden, like,
it's not just like, oh, just bring the

puppy home and everybody will be happy.

So what do you, what do you suggest?

Like, how can somebody.

What, let's ask this way.

What do need pe?

What do people need to take into
account to make the decision?

Kathy: I think the first thing is,
yeah, because I think the first

thing is the status of the older dog.

Helen: Yes.

I, I completely agree.

So, you know, if there's a current
dog or dogs in the household, you

really have to look at their tolerance
level, their size, their age, if they

are affected by any form of disease
or, um, hindrance at that point.

You know, if they're losing their
eyesight, if they're losing their hearing,

if they're more arthritic, you know, uh.

An 18-year-old Maltese that's
blind is not going to be easily

implemented with an eight week
old German Shepherd puppy, right?

So like there's all these
different moving variables.

You know, I look at like
jigsaw puzzle pieces.

You know, it's much easier to put two
jigsaw puzzle pieces together, even

if they're not from the same puzzle,
if they're from the same size versus.

Completely different.

So that there's a lot of things
that you need to consider.

It's not that that can't work, but
you might need to really implement a

ton more management and be okay with
literally having separate lives for

both dogs versus the idea that this
puppy will instantly know how to handle.

And, and again, so that.

That's sort of where I look
at it is the, the, the senior

dog and or the current dogs.

And then again, as Kathy was saying, the
puppies, there are puppies that will come

in and say, oh, you are a senior dog and
I need to know how to modify my behavior.

Sometimes just like kids, you know how
they are just kids that naturally go.

Oh yeah, I can't jump on grandma,
um, the way that I jump on.

But there are kids and there are
puppies that have no concept of spatial

awareness or deferring to certain needs.

And that's where working with,
whether it's the rescue or the

shelter or the breeder and saying,
this is what we have at home and

these are the kinds of temperaments
and personalities that we need.

Um.

But it's, it's understanding all of
those variables and knowing what,

dependent on those variables, what each
scenario might look different than this.

We just bring them home
and they're fine together.

I.

Is that okay?

Is that answer, Kathy?

I think no, I think that's

Kathy: exactly right and it, it could
be, here's the thing, it's our fondest

hope and dream for you that you will
be able to bring the puppy home and

that your senior dog actually feels in
good enough shape to be excited to deal

with that puppy and hang out with that
puppy, and that they will find a way

to be friends immediately and you won't
have to do that much management, but.

It's likely, and you just wanna be
prepared for the fact that you might have

to have some pens and gates and fencing
up a little bit longer than you intended.

Not that you have to have that going
24 7, but you do have to have that

as an option for when the, the.

Biggest most important piece of advice
we have is not to stick your old dog

or even any adult dog, frankly, with
a puppy 24 7, because frankly, they

did not choose that we added this.

They might, they might end up being
happy with it, but they, they were

not in the decision circle when they
did not raise their paw and say,

yes, I would like to add the toddler,
and then suddenly there's this.

Possibly wild toddler in their
face 24 7, and the puppy will

choose the other dog over you.

No matter how fun you are.

That puppy's gonna be really drawn to that
other dog in the household all the time.

And humans are gonna, we are all too busy.

And we're gonna be tempted to let that
older dog take the brunt of it and

we're gonna be like, you know what?

The puppy's being quiet right
now, he's with the older dog.

It's fine.

And we're gonna try to go do our
zoom and go focus on our thing

and go do the scroll doom scroll.

Um, so we need to just not do that.

Like, so we need to set it up, set up
the house, and set up our schedule, set

up our mindset to understand that the
puppy's gonna be with the older dog.

In the beginning, only in a supervised
way, and we're gonna help them be friends

by doing a bunch of good things that
allow them to del develop that friendship

without just being shoved together.

We're gonna help support
that and that may take a day.

A week, three months or a year, you know,
it's gonna take as long as it takes.

And so that, that's our biggest,
our biggest, uh, push for you guys

is to be ready to have, to really
manage, really supervise both

physically with, um, equipment in
your house that allows your senior

dog always to opt away from the puppy.

Always can choose, you know, what?

Not right now, and you're watching
enough that you can help that senior

dog go to go, go to a different part
of the house, and then guess what?

It's up to you.

The puppy is gonna need some, you know,
maybe he's gonna need a stuffed topple.

Maybe he's gonna need a
play date with a neighbor.

This is the thing.

You have to think about what.

What other options do you have?

What kind of village do you have?

Do you have friends?

Do you have kids?

Do you have teenagers next door?

Who would love nothing more than to take
the puppy to their house for an hour?

That's huge for the puppy,
terrific for everyone else.

So it doesn't mean that you have to
have a ton of extra time, but you

have to have the willingness and
the bandwidth to think about what

kind, how can we make this work?

Um, and you may need it, you
may not, but, uh, but it, uh,

anticipation is your friend.

Yeah,

Anke: pro proactive and
patients I'm hearing, right.

And that's something like, I wanna kinda
almost underline because I mean, I've

seen things where people got a puppy and
you know, and then like literally two

days later, oh, the puppy was crying.

They're like, what the
heck did you expect?

Right?

Like this puppy, you know?

So I, I think it's probably pretty rare
that it's a matter of a couple of days.

You know, I think, I think people, I.

Need to expect this.

I mean, well, if it, if it ends
up being seamless, well great.

But you can't kind of
go in expecting that.

And I think you need to have that
patience to put the, you know,

when, like when you're saying like,
oh yeah, months could be a year.

Like, you know, so, right.

Kathy: Yeah.

And the thing is, you know, the way we're
talking about it, I guess it, it's got a

little bit of a negative cast on it and
I just wanna make sure to point out that

I love to back burner everything else
and put dog relationships in the front.

I think it's grounding and centering
and peace inducing for me to do that.

So, you know, as, as I know, it's
sounding like a cautionary tale kind

of thing, the way we're talking.

But I also wanna say that
like, it's wonderful.

To do that, you just wanna be ready to
understand that your life is gonna change.

Um, and this is gonna be one
of those intense periods where

this is what you're focusing on.

And I, I love to focus on that.

I think it's, it can be an incredibly
beautiful moment for you, for your.

Partner for whoever else lives
in your house, for your kids.

If you got kids, it can be a really
beautiful phase and it can be really fun.

I just don't want it to take you
by surprise that you feel like,

wait, all I'm doing is dogs.

I want you to be like me
and Helen and be like, cool.

All I'm doing is dogs.

Helen: Yeah.

It's, it's so important to
remember that for a lot of people.

They don't observe, you know, if you ever
watch a mother raising her puppies, there

are clearly moments as those puppies
get older and they start to wean that.

Mom goes, I need a break.

I need a break.

Please give me a break.

Um, and if you haven't observed
that and you've never seen

it, you won't understand.

Um, that sort of, that really
important piece of like, there

has to be some separation.

We don't just sort of throw
them together like two pieces

of Play-Doh and now that's it.

They, they stay together, you know,
even us as mothers or parents have a

biological inclination to love our kids.

But there are moments where
we're like, please, I need

to go in the other room and.

Close the door for a little bit.

Right?

And when you put it that way with
people, it's like we're not trying

to be total doomers here, but it is
really important to understand that

there's going to be necessary times
where we need to put that separation in.

And that doesn't mean things are
going wrong, it just means that

you're proactively helping make
sure that they continue to go well.

Because as we know, mothers that
are left with their kids all

day, every day end up being like.

I'm gonna break if I don't
have five minutes to myself.

And I feel like when we
put that perspective in for

people, they go, oh, okay.

Right.

Yeah.

It's, there's nothing wrong with my dog.

There's nothing wrong with my puppy.

We just need to be implementing what
we ourselves need often as well.

Yeah.

Anke: Yeah.

That makes so much sense because, I
mean, I think I just wouldn't want people

to underestimate what they're getting
themselves into, you know, because that

then, then people, if they think it's
gonna be, oh, just be a puppy home.

And then, you know, and it all, and
then if something doesn't go smoothly

immediately, then they instantly
gotta lose patience instantly.

Like, oh, maybe that wasn't, like, give
the puppy back, get rid of the dog.

I, I've seen heartbreaking things in
shelters, you know, and they kind of.

How can you do that?

But you know, it's like if you
underestimate what you're in for, you

know what it requires of you then,
then I think you are more likely to

make a big drama out of some little
thing that didn't quite go your way.

I.

Kathy: I think that's exactly right.

If you just set the expectation right,
that there are gonna be some challenging

moments here, and so you, all you need
to do is anticipate that, think through

how you're gonna manage that, and um,
and it's, you know, it'll be all right.

But, um, but it, you're so right.

We don't want you to get into
a spiral where every single day

you're surprised by, wait a sec,
this was harder than I thought.

I can't believe I needed to step in.

So instead of you're expecting, okay,
we're gonna manage, and this part

of the day is gonna be pretty hard.

This, this, this.

Thing is gonna work like clockwork.

And then let's plan to have the
neighbor do this and let's plan.

You know, you, as long as you think
it through ahead of time and you arm

yourself with good stuffed topples in
your freezer and you've got plenty of

stuff to chew, and you've got options
for outdoor nature play and you're

letting the puppy dig a hole in the
dirt, in the backyard, because that's it.

As long as you are meeting those needs,
if you have the bandwidth to meet the

needs of both of those dogs and you.

Aren't thrown all the time by,
wait a sec, they need me again.

Uh, you can dive into this and it can
be a beautiful, beautiful situation.

Anke: Hmm.

Now that, that brings up something
else, um, when the older dog gets

older, like basically when the older
dog passes, like what's your experience?

Um.

You know, for the younger dog or like
in, in my case, I've had the two boys

pass and always there, there have been
younger dogs in the house and I always

had the sense like, you know what, I think
they know, they knew way before I did.

So I never had a case where, you know,
they were like visibly upset or strange.

You know, like, like have a friend of
mine where there's literally one dog

goes and the other one's like literally
whining, you know, like crying.

So what's, what's your experience
there or any tips or any thoughts?

Helen: So, you know, I'll, if you
want me to, Kathy, I can answer that.

If you, so, you know, grief, what we're
talking about is, is grief, not the actual

death there, there's two pieces to this.

You know, the death of the.

Um, and you know, and, and I'm
such an uplifting person to be

around 'cause I'm always telling
people like, death is inevitable.

Like, we can't escape death.

We are all going to experience it.

And when we bring an animal into
our home, we are accepting not

just the responsibility of raising
them as a puppy, but seeing them

through to the end of their life.

And, uh, we don't talk about that.

Piece of it enough.

And so death can be, um, prepared
for, and, um, absence can be

worked through proactively, just
like we're talking about here.

Especially if you have a puppy that comes
into the home with a dog that might be

elderly, but not fully transitioning
and going into pre dying yet.

But if they've only learned their life in
the context with another dog in the home

and then that other dog is getting ready
to pass, there are things that people

can be doing proactively then that will
help ease that actual death piece and

the absence, um, a little bit easier.

Um.

But the grief piece afterwards
is, you know, it really again,

is very dependent on the dogs,
the relationship that they had.

I mean, um, but grief is subjective.

It is very individual to
the person, to the animals.

I'll never forget when one of my, uh,
dogs passed and they had been a unit.

They were my two Papillons and Merlin
ran up the stairs and he stopped

at the top of the stairs and he
looked behind him because sweet pea

would always come up behind him.

And that was an initial, like,
he just couldn't help it.

It was a complete reflexive
move of, are you coming?

She wasn't there.

And he did that for about
three or four weeks until.

That past, you know, those, um,
those spontaneous bursts of that

neuro pathway of behavior, which we
all know if we've lost a dog, right?

We go to fill that old bowl that is
no longer of a dog that's no longer

there, or we call their name as we call
them in from the yard, and they're.

Not there anymore.

And our, our dogs are going to
go through that process as well.

It's not something that we should rush.

It's um, really this overlap
of your grieving and now we're

learning life in a new context.

And, um, if you need support, there
are plenty of now pet loss, um, grief

counselors that can help with the, the
human version and the animal version.

But it's also just a part of.

Being alive on this earth is
we're going to experience death

in some way, shape, or form.

We don't have to not talk
about it or avoid it.

Um, we can, the more we prep for
it and understand how to handle it,

actually the better everybody does.

In the end, I.

Kathy: So this brings us to what I
think, so of course I'm the puppy person,

but if I were just a dog owner on this
planet, I would say the reason to buy

this book is for Helen's chapter on, um,
on when it's time for your older dog.

You know, this is, we get
these questions all the time.

So do all, every vet, every trainer,
how do I know when it's time and

what's that gonna be like in.

You know, we have this
general discomfort with death.

We don't wanna see it, we
don't wanna think about it.

And it does contribute to a lot of folks
not quite recognizing the signs that their

dog is declining and they're, they're
not noticing they should be adjusting

their behavior a little bit more.

Their dog is having a lot of trouble
crossing the slippery wood floor and

a lot of trouble going upstairs and
trouble, and it come to think of it

isn't getting on the couch anymore and.

Is avoiding, you know, used to love
Thanksgiving when everybody came over.

Now is kind of seeking to be
in the back room at that time.

It's super important to
notice all those things.

And Helen talks about that, about, you
know, be, be aware, be aware of, of the

changes that your seniors going through.

The more aware you are.

The more ready you'll be to
decide, um, when it's time.

And a lot of people, you know,
um, my daughter works at a vet.

She's, um, she's in vet school
and there's just a lot of folks

who come in and are just not.

Ready at all.

And the, the vets are sitting there
hoping, hoping, hoping that the people

will be coming in and agreeing to put
this poor animal out of its misery.

But instead they want the
vet to do every little thing.

Um, and believe it or not, you
know, a lot of people think the

vets wanna make a bunch of money
and, you know, um, keep these dogs.

They do not.

They are sitting there
waiting for you to see.

See the light that this is, we
have, we are so lucky that we get

to decide to, that our friends
don't have to suffer this way.

Um, but instead we let them suffer this
way and we kind of hope they're gonna

have a natural death, which as Helen talks
about, like it's, it's natural death is

not the sweet little thing that you think.

They do not go downstairs, curl up in
their little bed and just go night night.

It is a lot of suffering and.

Often what happens is that people
are hoping for that they can't face

the euthanasia decision, and then
they end up with a crisis, and the

crisis is terribly painful for the
dog, and so then they rush to the er.

Now, this is lots of
stress, lots of trauma.

And then it's not inappropriate
to think about the finances.

So, you know, sometimes this can just
be an extraordinary stress on the

family for a dog that quite honestly,
we probably should have let go last week

and we could have done in a peaceful,
controlled manner with the whole

family calmly ready to say goodbye.

Anyway, I'm just saying Helen's chapter
on this will help anybody to start to

come to grips with this and um, be ready.

To move through this really important,
even beautiful part of your dog's

journey, um, with some grace.

Anke: Hmm.

I love that.

I love that.

I mean, I, I was too, and I always
like, funny enough, actually the,

that was always my big question, you
know, it was like, how would I know?

Because I always thought, I don't want.

I don't want him to suffer
because I can't let go.

I don't wanna, you know, like I
don't wanna kill off a perfectly fine

and I don't wanna kill off a dog.

That's fine.

And could have easily recovered,
you know, that's just a little off,

you know, there's a stomach bug and
I'm like, oh my God, he's gonna die.

Like he's.

I, I didn't wanna sort of cut him off,
but I also, almost more importantly,

didn't want to drag him out just
because I can't let go, because

I'm like, you don't deserve that.

You don't deserve one day of suffering.

Just because I'm like a selfish
human who can't let go, you know?

And I was actually with both dogs,
really surprised how clear it was.

It's almost like, you know, like literally
it, like for both in both cases, you know,

it was so now I have a whole different,
like, okay, I'll know, like now I'm

kind of what the two I have now is like,
I'll know when it's time because the

other two have communicated so clearly.

There was literally no doubt in the
moment and that was always my biggest

fear to kind of like make them.

You know, hang in there for longer then.

Then it's fair.

Helen: Sometimes, sometimes, you know,
and from doing, I mean, I'm on now,

uh, I think I have 450 euthanasia,
uh, in the last three years.

So this is something, uh, I am present
for letting dogs, senior dogs go at

least three or four times a week.

I did one this morning.

Um, and that is.

The, the, the biggest myth out there
is that the dog will tell you, um,

and there are wonderful experiences
where people will say, I will

absolutely know when it is time.

The hardest part though, is that when
people, either the person like yourself

says, I know it's time, but the spouse or
the family members are not ready for that.

Um.

Or when the animal really won't tell you.

So a, a great example of a
personal dog, not even a a

one of the seniors was my dog.

Uh, Paddington had lupus.

And Lupus is a miserable,
terrible disease, um,

especially for senior dogs and.

Paddington was really, really suffering.

But he would never, ever tell
me he was ready to go because

he would never want to leave me.

So I had to really weigh the three most
important things, which I look at, which

is function, physical function, his
purpose being fulfilled, and then joy,

whether he was experiencing joy and.

Make the decision for him where it was
like, I know that you're never going

to say you want to leave me because
that's the kind of dog that you are.

I'm going to now tell you that I'm not
gonna prolong your suffering to ease my

own when it is inevitable that at some
point you're going to pass, I'm going

to make it as easy for you as possible.

And that's something that I think
people have to become much more

comfortable with is proactively saying.

I'm going to let you go on the best last
day rather than wait for you to tell me.

And there's no right or wrong.

There are definitely scenarios where you
will say like, wow, I've, again, with

the oldies where I'll look at a dog and
I'll say, absolutely, I know it's time.

And then there are others that will pull
a rug out completely from under me and I

will say, oh my God, I waited too long.

Or I need to remind myself
and, and all of that.

And so.

The whole point of the, that piece in
the book is to give us those checks

and balances that are easier than a
lot of quality of life workshop, uh,

worksheets that you'll find online
are these like scores where you'll

be like one through five or this or
that, and then you get a number at the

end of it, and the number tells you
what the animal's quality of life is.

And that's really sticky to start to get
into because you'll start fudging numbers

because you'll look down at the end and
you'll be like, well, if I just put a four

here, then he's technically on that scale.

Um, and I hate that
the spreadsheet, right?

Well, it's, it's like
an Excel spreadsheet.

No, it's true.

And people will fudge it
because they don't wanna see it.

And if you just lay it out for like, how
is my dog moving, eating and sleeping?

How is my dog experiencing joy
and how is my dog purpose like?

It makes it a lot easier to truly
get yourself in check of what

you're seeing and us dog people
have a much easier time with that.

Again, we have to remember that the
general public that don't do this all

day, every day are gonna be able to do
have that kind of check and balance.

Kathy: And, and a so often we
hear, you know, if he wagged

his tail, he wagged his tail.

So he is not ready to go.

He's eating or he, he's
eating, he's eating.

And so this is what, where Helen's
purpose and joy situation really comes in.

So the, the, they, maybe they
can move around kind of okay.

And they're eating and
they're wagging their tail.

So yes, they still love you, but
that tail wag was 30 seconds.

What about.

The other 23 hours and however many
seconds that is, I don't do math.

Um, so, um, and so that's also

Helen: why I didn't like those
checklists, because then I had to add it.

You have to add,

Kathy: you have to add.

We don't do that.

We, we just, you know, do a motion.

Um, so, uh, but the purpose.

Part and the joy part, and I
love how Helen splits those.

Um, so the joy part would be, you
know, cuddling with you, lying

in the sun, sniffing out, uh,
in the yard, that kind of stuff.

The purpose thing is a little harder,
I think, for some people to spot, but

it would be kind of like if you've
got a terrier and they just love

to dig and look for stuff in your
yard, you know, can they still dig?

Can they still get out
in the yard and do that?

And if they can't, can you for a little
while anyway, support that a little bit.

Like can you give them a pile of
blankets to dig in to give them kind

of that feeling that their jeans are
telling them they're a terrier and

they should be digging for stuff.

Can you hide something in a pile
of blankets and have 'em dig

if they can no longer kind of
navigate going outside or whatever.

But that's gonna be a short.

Term kind of thing.

And so you really want to
be thinking about, you know,

is your dog's purpose more?

Is is it barking off
the, um, squirrels on the

Helen: deck?

Yeah, the

Kathy: squirrels on the
deck, stuff like that.

Like, so are they still able to do
that or are you realizing they are just

lying on the kitchen floor and not even.

Uh, lifting up their head
to see those squirrels.

You're gonna wanna not see it.

You're gonna wanna see, well,
he ate the piece of bacon I

gave him, so it's not time.

And we are just encouraging you to look a
little deeper and, um, make sure that, you

know, everyone's line is gonna be a little
bit different about quality of life.

It's gonna be a little different,
but we're just gonna encourage

you to think about that.

Ahead of time and loop in your
family member we'd, you know,

talk to everybody beforehand.

Sometimes a big sticking point is, you
know, the family dog has been around

forever, and then the kid goes to college
and the dog is in total decline and

everybody wants to wait till Thanksgiving
till the kid's home, and it's like.

Ooh, let's have that discussion
so that, 'cause you're worried,

this will surprise Johnny.

He won't know.

Well, he should know because you should
have that discussion the summer before

you got, as soon as your dog starts
to just get into those senior years.

It's a great idea.

Before it's an emergency,
before you're crying before.

Your checkbook is evolved.

It's time to talk about end of life.

This is part of life.

We shouldn't shy away from that.

And the more you talk about that, the
better your decisions are gonna be.

Anke: Makes so much sense.

And it has like it has an
air of peace around it.

When you don't kind of hide it and kind
of trying to stuff your head in the, in

the sand to kind of avoid it, you know?

Helen: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's, and you can, and you can, no, yeah.

You, you're completely right is you what
you have to understand when you talk

about death or you face death head on,
just like we're talking about with the

puppies, it's like there's, you know.

You're not gonna feel good about the,
like when I talk about pe to people, about

having discussions about making decisions
for euthanasia, there's no way that you're

getting out of this feeling great, right?

Like, no one, right?

Like there's, there's just no way.

But there are ways to
lessen regret and guilt.

Yes.

And.

W that doesn't, it's not
involved with the grief.

The grief is coming no matter
what, but you can lessen the

regret and the gr and the guilt.

And um, I always say to people
like, I would much rather.

Have the grief come earlier than the grief
come at the, at the time, no matter what.

I'm gonna feel that,
but then go, oh my God.

I could have, should have, would've,
why did I do, why did I wait?

Why did I let that happen?

Um, especially with the oldies, because.

You know, they don't deserve that at
my own expense for my selfish reasons.

And it's hard.

I don't, I take on these old dogs
knowing that whether they have 24 hours

or they have three months or a year,
they're not going to be here forever.

So I just have to surrender
to like whatever they.

Tell me they want or
they need and go with it.

If it's not gonna feel good no
matter what and you stay in,

Kathy: no, but you do stay in the
moment and you have a lot of joy with

all these guys who may, well, who
knows to today you have 14, who knows

who's gonna still be here tomorrow?

Yep.

Yep, a hundred percent.

We walk in that room.

There is, everyone is having a good day.

And that's just huge.

And this is what I sometimes see
dog owners, this is really what's

at play when they are resisting
euthanasia because they're replaying.

Wait a sec, wait a sec.

We didn't, we didn't go to the river,
but, but we didn't, we do, we, we

haven't played with Bower in a long time.

Wait, wait.

And what I want everyone to lean into
is, um, every day leave, lean into today.

What can you do with your dog today?

What can you do with your puppy and
your adult dog and your senior dog

today so that when sadness approaches
later, you are not filled with a bunch

of regret and, and trying to pack in
to the last three days where your dog.

Feels terrible by the way, and does not
anymore want to go to Stupid River, right?

The dog wanted to go to the Heavenly
River a long time ago, so you

gotta, you know, enjoy your dog.

Like, enjoy them now.

Like, and, and I, I know,
I just sound all you know.

I don't mean taking, you
know, your entire day.

I mean, make sure that every morning,
so every morning we have porch time,

so I have my coffee, it's like 15
to half minutes to half an hour.

Tom and I go on the porch.

We have our coffee, the four dogs,
and often the cat are sitting there.

We all settle in.

They get to watch all that.

All the intruders who are, who are
passing by, um, and uh, and we're all just

peacefully sitting there, they settle in.

That doesn't take a lot from me,
but it is a fundamental part of

the pattern of our life together.

And when it is time to put someone.

When, when we start to approach somebody's
senior hood, I'm gonna remind myself,

boy, they had that every morning and they
loved that so much, and so I just would

encourage you to try to add, I mean, we
have more than that too, but still add

stuff so that you aren't filled with
that weird guilt and regret at the end.

When it is time to face your dog's
death, don't make it harder on

yourself by not filling their days Now.

With lovely connection with lovely
interspecies life in your home, meet their

needs, give 'em a chance to be a dog.

Hang out with them.

Do that stuff so that when you do come
to the end, it is simpler, not easy.

Less complicated.

Helen: Yeah.

So you that's, that's my woods
walks Kathy, like with the, yes.

And we take the oldies.

So we've just constructed a
sanctuary, this old dog beach, which

is this place with the stream and
it's got a bridge and everything.

And our goal is like we take them
down there and for me it's like if

I take them down there and they have
a great day, and then later on in

the day they crash and they pass.

On, they will have still had such a
great, like, it, it, it's so huge.

What Kathy is saying is exactly right.

Yes, it's huge.

Anke: And you know what
I'm hearing in all of this?

It's like, yet again, you
know, dogs are just the best

teachers because all of that.

Wouldn't we also wanna
apply that to our own lives?

Helen: Yes.

You know.

Hundred percent.

Yeah.

That that's what we, you know, you,
if you work around death and life,

honestly a lot in, on the, in this
aspect of life coming in and the, the

fragileness and the way that, you know,
it's, so we, we look at like, oh, it's.

So, but life can be really, really fragile
and very tumultuous in those early when

puppies are being born and all of that.

And then when you are working around
death, you really are humbled that like

you can't take anything for granted.

Um, and I think that's what working
with senior dogs has taught me.

And, um.

Definitely with, I'm the same way.

At least if, if something were to
happen to me, I would've at least

gone on my woods, walk with my dogs
and had my coffee on the porch.

That's how you wanna go.

Anke: You know

Helen: why you wanna live
your own life every day.

I would've done something that
has brought me purpose and joy.

Yeah.

Anke: Yeah.

Regret free living, right?

Yes.

So where can people go and get the book
and find out more about the two of you?

Kathy: Go ahead Kathy.

So it's available wherever
you like to buy your books.

Uh, it is available.

It's old dog, new dog.

Wait.

I always have to look to
see what the subhead is.

Hang after old dog, new dog, supporting
your aging friend and welcoming a new one.

So.

That's it.

Um, it's got darling little
golden retrievers on the cover.

Um, anyway, it's available
wherever you, um, find your books.

Um, you can find me,
both of us have websites.

I have, mine is, um, puppy picks.com.

Um, I do, I have other books too.

Um, and I do, I do training,
I do do Zooms for, you know,

wherever your, um, listeners are.

I do do, um, a lot of.

Emergency puppy zooms for
people who are like, wait, wait.

I just, I, what did I do?

I ruined my life and I have a puppy.

So I do do a lot of zooms that, that are,
uh, you know, aimed at helping people

to put, put one foot in front of the
other after having gotten their puppy.

I'm usually, uh, that works pretty well.

Um, so that's me.

Helen: And then I am, um,
there's two ways to find me.

If you're interested
in the sanctuary work.

It's old dogs.

Go to helen.com

and there's a learning center
there, which, um, where I teach a, a

course called The Good Death, which
is talking about implementing and

how to measure function, purpose,
and joy with our senior dogs.

And really looking at that, um, from
a more broad, broad perspective.

Um, and then if you're
interested in, uh, my.

End of life consults
or anything like that.

My, my, uh, or training is no
monkey business dog training.com.

The book, the link for the book
is also on my training website.

It's not on the Sanctuary
website because it's just.

That's messy.

Um, but yeah, no monkey business
dog training and old dogs.

Go to Helen and you can follow
both on Facebook and see lots of

toothless, geriatric, stinky bald dogs.

I recommend

Kathy: you do that.

Yes.

It's very funny.

You should recommend it.

Very therapeutic.

Helen: Yes.

Anke: Well, thank you so much
for like unpacking this really.

And beautiful topic and thanks for
putting your wisdom into the book so

other people can get a glimpse of it.

Uh, they don't have the
luxury of meeting you on Zoom,

Kathy: so thank you.

Well, thanks.

Thank you so much for having us.

We appreciate it.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
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