Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome Lisa and Dale.

I'm very excited to have you here.

Hi.

Dale: We're delighted to be here.

Yeah, yeah.

Thank

Lisa: you for inviting us.

Anke: My pleasure.

So let's just, let's just start.

We're letting people know where in
this lovely world you are and you

know, what's your business with dogs?

Dale: Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, Lisa, you can go first.

Thank you

Lisa: so.

So well, I, I'm Lisa Hurd and I,
I've been running, um, dog behavior

clinic as my business is called,
um, in Lincolnshire in England.

You'll find out where day is.

She's quite a distance from me.

Um, so I, most of my clients
come from vet referrals.

Um.

I, I take others as well.

Um, and from rescue centers, I
think one of my passions is, is

rescue dogs and trying to help them,
you know, find their new homes.

So that's kind of my
background is, is rescue.

Um, I've been involved in canine education
for many years with several different.

Course providers, um, and I from
Dog Behavior Clinic, I provide

sort of CPD training for vet
clinics and other professionals.

And Dale and I have known each other
a number of years, shall we say.

It's quite a long time.

I'm not even gonna count.

Um.

And we've both got extensive experience
in the canine behavior industry.

Obviously Dale are running hers, which
she'll tell you about, um, operating

our own businesses, but we've also
worked together with, in a canine

education company, and I think for
us, we, we realize that and, and sort

of recognize there are gaps in, in.

Existing education and we really wanted to
offer something inno innovative and have

some practical elements to that training.

Um, not just for students, but also for
dog owners and dog guardians as well.

So we've kind of got two
strands to our, our education.

We very much believe that sort of hands-on
in-person sessions are essential, um,

for anyone seeking to work with dogs.

And practical experience allows
for a much better understanding

and sort of skill development.

And let's be honest, there's
always something new to learn.

Um, just because we've been doing
things for a number of years

doesn't mean that we're experts.

You know, I think we
need to recognize this.

Um.

And obviously practical sessions
really help build up those observation

skills because yeah, we could, we
could talk for hours about observation

skills, so I won't bore you with that.

But, you know, we, we believe in
focusing and, and trying to foster

a strong relationship between the
human and their canines and, and

helping them have a really harmonious
and fulfilling relationship.

I guess that's our, our goal.

Um, probably in our own practice
and, and working as without worry.

So without worry, canine
education was born.

It's our brainchild, isn't it, Dale?

Yes, they baby.

Absolutely.

And it's de dedicated to promoting
positive interactions with dogs

through compassion, uh, respect, uh,
reward-based training, of course.

Um.

And we, we've had some fantastic
feedback from, you know, from our

students, from dog owners talking
about, um, our material is, you know,

really, really easy to understand.

And it, what they like about it
is that it's sort of real world.

It's not this sort of fluffy thing.

Yes, we need to do theory.

Of course we need to know, you know,
some of the theory behind dog behavior.

But for a dog owner, they're.

They wanna know, well, how do I do it?

How does this apply to me?

And it's not some sort of airy fairy
thing, oh, well, we'll do this.

You know, we, we give practical
help, um, you know, for

solving some of those problems.

Um, and I think a lot of our
feedback's been around the, the

quality of the material, um, but also.

Getting them to think outside the box.

You know, it is not just
this little bit of theory.

Um, I'm making hand signs.

That's a bit rubbish, isn't it?

Anke: People can watch on
YouTube, they can see it.

I love that because I think that's really.

You know, you say always like, as the
more you know about the subject, the more

you realize how little you actually know.

It's almost almost like
the personal things.

They know everything.

They're kind of giving away.

They haven't got a clue, and I'm
gonna come back to that gap you

mentioned like the gaps in the exam.

I'm gonna.

Wanna dig?

We go there.

You can

Lisa: dig into Dale's brain.

She's always good for a good,

Anke: so Dale, we've kind of teased
people in enough, like people I know well.

Dale: It's not going to be a surprise,
is it with a name like mine and

an accent like mine to realize
where in the world I might be?

So I'm in the, I'm in Scotland,
uh, the, the West of Scotland.

Um.

Which we were just talking about is
the, probably the highest rainfall

in the whole of, uh, the uk.

But you know, we are hard day in Scotland,
so we don't let any of that bother us.

Um, but yeah, I've run my own business,
uh, is called being canine and I've

run that for quite a number of years.

Um.

And the thing for, for me was
that I felt uncomfortable saying

some things to my clients.

So most of my referrals are
either through the vet or they

are just people self refer.

Uh, I used to do classes as well, but
I don't do so many classes nowadays.

But I used to feel quite
uncomfortable saying certain things.

And one of the things
that stuck with me was.

Every interaction is a
training opportunity.

And I would say that because that's
what I'd heard, you know, and I'm

talking about quite a few years ago
that this was something that I would've

repeated and then a question myself,
and I thought, right, should it be,

I mean, we're saying that, and we're
saying reward the good, ignore the bad.

But what I might think is good behavior
or might, I might want someone else,

would think was bad and didn't wanna,
and then I thought, well, wait a minute.

I, I am now questioning some
of these standard sayings.

And one of the things that I felt really
uncomfortable with was, um, you know,

that idea that just because you can,
doesn't mean to say that you should.

And I, I realized that yeah,
we can get dogs to do a

multitude of things, can't we?

You know, get your reward right?

Have a high enough value reward.

If your timing's really, really
good, you can get your dog to do

X, Y, and Z as though that was
what we should be aiming for.

And the more I thought about that,
I thought actually I'm seeing

things and I'm not living it.

What I would do wasn't actually tying
in with what people were saying.

That's what you should see
when you're a, a dog trainer

or a behaviorist or whatever.

So I just found it really interesting
that actually what is being promoted, um,

was a transactional relationship, not.

Uh, a real relationship that's
two-way and built on trust and

two-way communication, and it seemed
to be all very person centric.

It was very much what I want my dog
to do, how I want my dog to respond,

and I thought it doesn't feel right.

And then when there were gaps, so
let's be honest, a dog that chooses

not to engage a dog that disengages or
a dog that has a gap and isn't doing

anything that's still communication,
but actually the old fashioned

view was or will get higher value.

Rewards.

Get your timing to be better.

You need to get the behavior.

And I thought, Hmm, not actually
too sure why any of this is of value

and what value is it to our dogs?

They might do it and they might enjoy
the reward and they might be quite

greedy dogs and would do anything, you
know, for, for a tiny piece of chicken.

But is that really building a
good relationship with our dogs?

And so.

When Lisa and I were involved in other
education providers, um, we would talk

about this and we would, we would question
some of the things that, you know, were

being said over and over and over again.

And then we started to sort of
say, but you know, if I'm honest, I

don't really work that way myself.

You know, I work slightly differently.

And then we realized,
actually, when you simplify it.

So if you have a simpler attitude to
living with dogs, it means that actually

things come together much more easily.

So if a dog really truly believes that
you've, they're seen, they've been

heard, you have noticed, you know, any
kinda communication, but also that you

know how to respond appropriately, that.

Things don't rely on dogs, don't rely
on being paid to do stuff for you.

And that is a, that is a, when dogs
feel seen and heard and understood, very

simply it becomes a better relationship.

But it's actually a bit of a
revelation to a lot of people

that if you don't coerce them.

Pay them using food or access to other
rewards, not just food, but other rewards

that your dog won't do it for you.

And we talked about this often and
said, well, supposing we're asking

our dogs to do reasonable things.

We're not asking them to do anything.

You know, that's not a natural thing.

Why wouldn't they do it?

And of course when you think about
why they wouldn't do it, there's

may be a very, very good reason
in the dog's head for why they

don't want to respond in that way.

When we ask, and once you start
thinking like that, you see the

whole relationship very differently.

Mm-hmm.

Anke: I love, I love that.

And I think.

I'm just sort of in my mind, I have, I
have a document in my mind when I host,

um, a cla when I invite somebody to host
a class on the actual registration form,

I always ask one question, like, what
are you curious to learn more about?

Right?

So I, and I then collect
these answers in the document.

So I have this long, long, like, you know,
and it's interesting how people phrase it.

Right.

And so currently there's one coming
up that's about, um, you know,

from barking mad to calm and quiet.

So it's all about barking and
every single person is like, how

can I get my dog to stop barking?

Whatever the thing is.

Right.

That really speaks to
what you were saying.

Yes.

It's people, there's this like, how can
I make my dog do or stop doing something?

And I think these being seen and heard,
I think a lot of people probably.

Understand that intellectually they kinda
hear that and go, yeah, that makes sense.

And the question is, what do people get
wrong when they, because I would imagine

most people think they, they do what it
takes to understand, to, to make their dog

feel seen and heard and probably don't.

So what's your experience there?

Are there gaps in what pe between, between
what people think they do and what they

act, what the dog probably would think?

Dale: I think, I mean I know Elise will
chip in with this as well, but, uh,

I think people are very inconsistent.

So I think they notice when they do
things that work well or that they

think is the right, um, approach.

But the problem for dogs is that we
change people, you know, change their

response so many times that the, that,
that causes stress to lots of dogs.

They don't know which
way we're going to be.

You know, today, and I don't
mean about punishment or not

punishment, I mean, obviously we
advocate, no punishment whatsoever.

Goes, should go without
saying, shouldn't it?

But if you, if a dog shows
hesitance something and

doesn't want to do something.

What people generally do
is they up the, the ante.

They start encouraging the dog.

They try and lure the dog.

They try and coax the dog.

They try and coerce the dog.

Now, one of the things there is
that the dog very quickly learns.

I am sure I'm not inside a dog's
head, but I am sure that they learn

that they have no say in making
a decision about what they either

want to do or don't want to do.

And for some dogs as well, they need.

There's a pause because they need a
moment or two to consider it, process

it, but they're not given that time.

They're rushed.

Because the person has asked for
them to do something and you have to

respond immediately if you're a dog.

I mean, I don't know if you know, if
dogs know that, but that appears to be,

I know, but that appears to be the thing
that when you say jump, your dog should

say how high and do it immediately.

Otherwise, they've not learned and
they're not, you know, obedient.

We hate that, but I
think the inconsistency.

Just proves that people do not
really a lot of the time notice

until the dog is refused to do
something or they are not getting

the response that they, uh, expect.

And that's when they start
using words like stubborn

obstinate, difficult untrainable.

So they use all these words because that.

Describes the fact that the
dog didn't comply immediately.

Um, Lisa, have you got a example?

You wanna, I think a lot of it

Lisa: kind of comes down to the old
fashioned, traditional obedience.

There was this expectation that, well,
I think there's an expectation from

the wider public sometimes as well.

Your dog should be trained, you should
be able to get your dog to do X, Y, Z.

So that kind of fills people's heads.

Oh.

You know, they get embarrassed when
they're out in public and so on, but there

is this expectation that I've asked my
dog to do it, so they should be doing it.

And if they're not doing it,
the focus isn't on, well, why

might they not want to do it?

The focus then becomes on, well,
they're disobedient, they're they're

stubborn, and all the rest of it, and.

You kind of go, they go down this rabbit
hole of, well, you know, as, as Dale said,

I need to find a higher motivating or
higher reinforcing treat, or it must be,

um, the environment and, and, and they go
through all of this and completely miss.

What the dog is trying to say to them.

And it Yeah,

Anke: that's, that's funny actually,
because I've got like two of them,

the, the brown one there and, and Mrs.

Spanish massive.

And you can tell that those breeds who,
I mean, the massive, like, well they're

normally, she's like the sofa tiger.

Probably the only one in Spain.

Like most of the time they live
with the shape out in the country.

So they're not, they're, they
have to be independent thinkers.

Right, and you can tell
with her it's hilarious.

You say something and she'll go,
Hmm, let me think about that.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Alright.

You know, and then she'll come
around and you know, or she goes,

well no, this makes no sense at
all so you can go do it yourself.

Right.

So she's definitely not an obedient,
I mean, you know, like, not in

the sense of I give a command and
she'll also, the thing is I've

never tried, like, I've never like.

So my partner will probably kill me if
you heard this episode, but he won't.

So he's, he will quite, you know,
sometimes he has this thing, oh,

you know, and all of a sudden
expect something from her.

But I'm like, you've never spent a
minute to actually teach her that.

Dale: Yeah.

Anke: Because then he'll go all
of a sudden like, come here,

like I told you to come here.

Like, have you ever considered that?

She might not have a clue
what you want from her.

You know, so there's this expectation
that they could just sort of magically

know, because quite often they do
seem to be able to read our minds.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and I think there
is that constant sort of.

Misunderstanding or, or you know,
where the expectations don't quite

meet because everybody watches,
you know, on television, like,

oh my God, those police docs.

Right.

It's like Uhhuh, you know?

And people will say, oh, I want that level
of response and immediate, but do you

have any idea how much time they spend?

Yeah.

You know?

And it's probably also
different for different breeds.

Dale: Yeah.

And some dogs.

Won't make the grade when it
comes to that type of work.

And that's what people forget is
that police dogs and some of these

search and rescue dogs, not all
of them, they cannot take any dog.

Train the dog to that level of working.

Uh, though the dogs that don't make
the grade are weed out very early on.

Yeah.

So I think that people have
this misconception as well about

dog's motivation to do stuff.

So we've either got the ones who the
dog should do it because they love us.

The dog should do it because they
respect us or they should do it because

I'm the holder of all things good.

You know?

Um, and actually, you know,
have we ever considered that

the dog is quite often making.

The right decision for themselves
by not complying with what we ask.

So, I mean, I don't do everything
that everybody asks of me.

I mean, I'm allowed to say, well, I thank
you very much, but I'm not doing that.

Um, and that goes, doesn't it?

That goes with having intelligence
supposedly and being able to weigh up.

So we value our dog's intelligence
because they should be intelligent

enough to be trained, but then we
don't like their intelligence when

they weigh something up and say,
well, I don't really want to do that.

Thank you very much.

You know, and I think then
you have to start looking at.

What your expectations are and why your
expectations are of that type of response.

And that's what I'm going back to, like,
when I first started in dog behavior and

dog training all those hundreds of years
ago, uh, the, the expectation was this

sort of almost like military type of,
I ask for something, I must get it now.

I never ever, you know.

Subscribe to the idea of force or
bullying dogs into doing anything.

But I think we have this, um, still
this expectation that a dog is

valued and judged on their ability.

To respond quickly to us and what we might
want, plus maybe not give us any bother or

annoy us when we don't want to be annoyed.

So these poor dogs have got step
up to the mark when it's expected,

go away and be quiet and not
bother us when that's expected.

But also on the other hand, be
thinkers and clever, but don't think.

If it means that you're not
doing what I want you to do.

So we have all of this expectation,
and I just think these, we dogs in the

middle must be going, what the heck?

Make your mind up.

Anke: That's so true.

That's so true.

So what was the, what was the um,
thing that sparked you guys to go and

say, well actually we should put this.

Project on together because you
both have your own business, so you

could just, just kind of meet at
conferences and, you know, but what

made you say like, actually we wanna
really create that platform together?

Dale: Lisa, I'll let you go.

Lisa: I, I think it is just the more
we talk together, we, we do talk a lot.

I mean, you know, we put
our hands up to that.

We do talk and, and I think just,
just the more we talked and it,

you realize it's not just a.

A problem in, in our area, or it's not
just a problem that we've experienced

with our clients or whatever.

You and, and students, you, we realized
it's a much, much bigger problem.

And there's, we just felt there was so
much we could bring to the table, really.

Um, and, and just try and offer
some, I, I don't wanna say it

sounds a bit of a cliche, you
know, something, something new.

You know, all, all these
different methods and.

And training ideas and all the rest,
let's just concentrate on the dog.

You know, it, it, people are looking
for this, this new, the best method,

the best way forward, how to train dog.

And that's not what we are about.

We're trying to get people to.

To see the dog in front of them
to understand there's much, much

more to, to, to dogs than the, the
little bit that they're focusing on.

And, and we, we just kept talking
and talking and we're like,

right, well, let's do it then.

Anke: Yes.

So what, what is it that, that you are
offering, like to get, I mean, obviously

you're not in the same location, so
it wouldn't be the Sunday afternoon

get together in the local park.

Yeah.

So is it training programs or like
what is it that you're offering?

Lisa: Yeah, so we've kind of
got, as I said, two strands.

We, we've got sort of.

The CPD courses for professionals,
for people wanting to learn about

dog behavior in a, in a more,
you know, sort of structured way.

And then we've got the, the kind of
stream for dog owners and guardians,

which of course we are really passionate
about in, you know, in our own.

Um, businesses as well, and we've got
different courses, but particularly with

the students, um, or anyone wanting to
learn about sort of dog behavior, we offer

an enhanced so you can do the theory,
which again, we think is a bit out there.

It's a bit different.

Uh, well, I know it's different.

We know it's different, but we
also offer an enhanced version

of that where they, depending
where the people live, if they're.

Up in Scotland, they can go to Dale,
or if they're down in England, they

can come to me in Lincolnshire.

Um, and that's, that's
kind of how we work it.

So there are opportunities for in-person
stuff 'cause it, it's invaluable.

Uh, and we've, we've
run some practical days.

Different, you know, in each area
ourselves about, um, just observation

skills and body language just for
anyone to come across along to not

just, you know, dog professionals
or somebody who wants to be a.

A dog behaviorist.

And I really do think the practical
stuff makes such a difference.

You can't get it anywhere.

It's really difficult to, that's

Anke: interesting.

Yeah.

Because everybody is down say, oh,
we're gonna just train online, you

know, and I think the, the, the body
language, the observation piece,

it's like everybody says, well, you
need to understand body language.

Right?

But like, yeah, but
how, like what's piece?

I'm always like, yeah,
but what am I missing?

You know?

Yeah.

Because if I.

The, the standard stuff that, you know,
we kind of know that the wagon tail

doesn't necessarily uhhuh the dogs happy.

Right.

So what else is there that Yeah.

You know, people may understand
one way when it's like a

lot more nuanced than that.

Exactly.

And I, and I don't really feel
that there's a lot of, um.

Information.

It's the same old conflicting
crap around, you know?

So where it's like, if I'm now
there and say, I really wanna

understand body language of my
dog, it's not that easy to find.

No.

On the other side of it is
part of your offerings that

is really, extremely valuable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lisa: And that the important bit
is, okay, you've recognized that.

What are you gonna do about it?

How are you going to respond to that?

And that's the bit, oh yeah,
my dog's licking his lips.

Oh, he's stressed.

Okay.

We need to look much deeper than that.

You know, a lip, lip here, so, yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And that's, that's kind of
what we try and hone in on.

Um, yeah, and it's the

Dale: groups as well.

It's the group in the clusters of things.

So I'm afraid to say that no, that, I
mean, I run daycare as well, so I spend

lots of hours every day just watching
them and uh, and it's fascinating.

But if you were to look for those
individual lip licks or whatever,

you know, whichever one of the things
you wanted to look at, yeah, you'll

see them, you'll always see them.

But it's, it's when you, when you see
them in clusters or in isolation, or

followed by an action or before an
action, they're the things that matter.

It's a bit like if you buy a yellow
car and you go out tomorrow and

you will see umpteen yellow cars.

So if you want to see lip
licking, you will watch dogs,

and that's all you will see.

But the problem with that is that you're
not then seeing what surrounds that

and it, it's fluid and it's sometimes
fleeting and it's very easily missed.

And I think that when people should
be observing and simply observing,

they're very quickly interpreting
and jumping to conclusions.

And then, so really what we should
be doing is teaching everyone to.

Be able to recognize these clusters rather
than individual things that do not happen,

like a photograph or a nice drawing that
says, if you see whale eye, it means this.

And of course it doesn't, you
know, it doesn't mean anything.

It doesn't mean anything
on its own anyway.

You know, it's when it's
combined with something else.

So that's the kind of thing that we,
we spend a lot of time with students,

um, going over, you know, let's look at
these dogs and let's look at what you

know, what is happening in front of us.

Not let's be clever and tell everyone what
we think the dogs are thinking or feeling.

Because we don't know.

Anke: No, you know what?

You were just, the way you explained
it, it reminds me of, uh, you

know, like lie detecting stuff.

You know, when there's somebody on
LinkedIn I follow and it's almost about

deception detection is his thing, right?

Yes.

And he will exactly say that.

You know, like Wilson, somebody.

Uh, I don't know.

Like their shoulders are tense, you know?

Yeah.

And exactly that.

It's not like you can't just anybody,
like I might just have kind of

on my neck in, in the yoga class.

Right, exactly.

So it doesn't mean I'm lying to you
just because my shoulders a bit hunched.

So it's not in isolation.

You have to see the, see that
context uhhuh, it, it seems

it's exactly the same thing.

Right?

And nobody really goes
that deep with that.

Dale: No.

No, and I think that's the
really important thing is that

we can jump to conclusions.

It takes us down the wrong path,
uh, to the detriment of the

dog, you know, I have to say.

Um, but also to the detriment
of the relationship with the

person that lives with the dog.

Uh, so we have to be really, really
careful about making, you know, these.

Truth, uh, sweeping statements
about dogs, all dogs, you know, when

they do this, it means X, Y, and Z.

And of course that's, you know,
that's simply not, not true at all.

Um, and it's a bit like, you know,
we are good generally at when we meet

someone, we can feel uncomfortable
because they're, the words they're saying,

don't match with their body language.

That can make us feel uncomfortable.

Um, so when I think about that and I
think about how good dogs are at reading

body language, how often must they get?

This absolutely contradiction in terms
of our behavior and our body language.

Uh, and that must cause them discomfort
and make them feel, you know, uh,

maybe a bit out of sorts, who knows?

But I think we have got to
not just be observing dog body

language, but we have to be in.

Understand that what we bring into
that changes everything for the dog.

So some of some students, you
know, might be very stiff in their

behavior because they don't want to
do anything wrong around the dog.

So they'll, they'll stay really sure,
uh, really still, and you'll see that

the dogs are not sure of them because
they're trying so hard to not give any.

Signs of, you know, I'm not uncomfortable,
but I'm just gonna stay really still.

And then what happens is the dog looks
at them and, and it's like, whoa.

You know, you're acting weird.

Um, and so sometimes we're not
aware of what we are doing.

Um, and then so what you can, one
thing that you can get is if you're

observing the dog and your dog changes
their reaction, you have to think.

Did I do something?

There was that me.

Did I step forward?

Did I loom a wee bit?

Instead of thinking, oh, I've
read the dog's body language.

We're part of it.

Anke: Yeah, that makes so much sense.

Actually, my, my very nice, my
little kite, he, he used to growl.

I like people, you know, people always
said to me, he is like, you know, that

dog wouldn't have done well with anybody.

Because he would like his, when he
was kind of excited to see me, he'd

growl, like growling was his thing.

Like that's what he'd do.

And if you go by the buy the book, so all
the dog growls, whatever, like, not for

this one, you know, like he never heard
a fly, he never even stole a sandwich

like he was, you know, but when he gets
excited, he could pull his teeth out

and, and give you that growl, you know?

Yeah.

And, and he's like little and you
know, that was just his way of.

That's how emotion came out for him,
you know, but you, you'd always have

to, and now on top of it, he was
black, you know, it was like, yeah.

So people were always scared of him.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

So, and you always have to explain
like, no, he's just like very

sensitive and you just don't look
at him like, just leave him alone.

Like, don't try and be nice to him,
you know, just leave him alone.

But it was like a classic case.

So I think like somebody who's just.

Understands.

Oh, dog growling means
they're about to bite you.

Well, they would've always
felt threatened by him.

Yeah.

You know?

Exactly.

When he was just kind of like, oh
my God, like nerves are ramping up.

Not quite sure here what's going on.

You know, he was quite, yeah.

Sort of this scatter cat and little
like, you know, so it's, and it's

Dale: this idea that everything
always escalates, you

Anke: know?

Dale: You know, a growl
always leads to a bite.

You know, it's this escalation that
they go up and, and you know, and

that's not true either, you know?

No, not with that one.

So it not always true.

Never.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, and I think that's the, the, the main
thing for us is, um, actually, you know,

asking people to set aside all of those
preconceived notions and start to question

and start to really see what's going on.

Uh, that's quite difficult.

And Lisa and I both had
students who have admitted.

That they've really found it very,
very challenging to begin with

because you're having to really
change, probably, you know, the way

that you believed you were working
correctly, which is absolutely fine.

This is about enhancing your knowledge.

It's not about saying everything
you learned before is.

You know, out the window.

It's about saying, yeah, you've learned
all that, but let's move on now.

Not, let's not get stuck there
just doing the same old, same old.

Let's move it along and
make things even better.

Uh, and I think that that's what we've
done individually in our businesses.

So it was natural, you know, wasn't it
really to try and bring that together

and, and do it, you know, do it together.

Um, we still.

Do our separate things and we do
things together and I think that

keeps everything fresh and it keeps
it interesting, you know, rather

than for our students as well.

It isn't just, you know, we
are, we are on one stream and

we, you know, we stick to that.

Anke: Yeah.

Love it.

I think

Lisa: that's something else.

Sorry.

Something else.

I'm sorry.

Didn't wanna cut you off.

That's alright.

It's just something I
just thought of there.

What is good practice
when you are practicing?

Any skills, any, any job role, not just
sort of dog behavior or dog training

is actually getting feedback as well.

So Dale and I are so fortunate that
we've got each other, you know?

Yeah.

And, and, and it's an
important part of, of our work.

We, well, we've always done it this way,
you know, people often to say, oh yeah.

So I, I look for, for somebody
who, who's been doing it for years.

Yeah.

Well, they might have been doing it wrong
for years, you know, that's no guarantee.

And I think it.

It's, it's trying to get students
to look at and, and this critical,

you know, looking at yourselves
and going, how was that?

Videoing yourself.

See how you're, how you're
doing, what you are doing.

Oh my goodness.

And we all have habits.

We all have little things that we do.

So it's just, just trying to get students
to think about, you know, these things

as well, as well as dog owners and
what they're doing with their dogs.

For the students as well.

Anke: Yeah.

I'll shut that

Lisa: now.

Anke: Love that.

Love that.

No.

So where can people go and
find out about your offerings?

About what you do together?

What?

What you do separately?

Where can people go find you?

Lisa: Okay.

Um, so we've got, without
worry, canine education.co

uk, uh, website.

So, and you'll see on there
there's CPD courses that are, you

know, for professionals or those
who want to go down that line.

And we've also got them for, for you and
your dog, for dog owners and guardians.

So there's kind of two streams on there.

Um, so yeah, have a look through the
website and see, see what you fancy.

And then we've got our
own, and we're still,

Dale: we're still on Facebook as well.

Yes.

So we, we do put a lot of stuff on there.

Um, so we try and we try and kinda
keep everything up to date as best we

can, but yeah, you can find us with
without worry or you can find, you know,

us individually even just search our
names on, you know, were easily found.

Anke: Awesome.

Well, and obviously the links go straight
below the, uh, podcast or videos.

So I'm gonna make sure
you guys are easy to find.

So thank you so much for coming.

It's been an absolute delight.

That's

Lisa: been a pleasure.

Thank you.

Pleasure chatting with you.

Thank you.

Anke: Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
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