Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Lisa: Hello and welcome back, Lisa.

I'm super excited to have you back.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It's great to be here.

We've got a fun, just amazing,
rewarding topic to talk about today.

Anke: We do indeed.

Do you wanna introduce it?

Because I think it's a very
emotional topic in a way.

I don't know.

For me, it feels emotional because
it's such a win-win situation.

You know that that.

That is, it's the kind of thing where
everybody benefits that we're always aim

for, but it's not that easy to pull off.

Yeah.

So I,

Lisa: yeah, yeah.

Take it away.

And I think, you know, if we talk about
win-win, we almost have to think about it.

So a win-win, win-win
situation, there are four wins.

Ooh.

Um, so the topic today is j is a jail
dog program or prison dog programs.

People refer to them in different
ways, but um, in 2012, well, let me.

Yeah, so we're talking about jail dogs and
I'll talk about how I kind of got there.

But KNO College, um, thankfully was,
um, asked to participate, but it was

a long, kind of a long journey with
both Brad and I desiring to do that.

Um, lemme give you a bit of a hi.

Bit of a history in my.

Baby dog trainer days.

Um, this was probably
2004, so 21 years ago.

Um, I had just taken a couple of
professional dog training academies

from, uh, pat Miller of Peaceable Paws
and I was up in Maryland driving to

her facility as I drove by a, a prison.

And I looked at the prison
and said, oh my gosh.

I understand what my dad did now.

So my father, when I was growing up
as a child, had a PhD in clinical

psychology, and he worked, ended up
working for, as a chief psychologist in

maximum security prisons in the sixties
and the seventies, early seventies.

He had in his schooling before
then he had studied Skinner.

I was raised with positive reinforcement.

I was like, for example, when I got
a a on a report card, I got $5, you

know, maybe not a lot of money today,
but back then, so, uh, was back then.

So he lobbied against harsh
treatment and beatings and

solitary solitary confinement.

Um, with inmates and lobbied
for true rehabilitation

through positive reinforcement.

And he even wrote a book, um, in
the seventies entitled Behavioral

Science and Modern Penology.

Wow.

Which is all about.

Helping the community of people
who work within the prison system

understand true rehabilitation.

Just not lock 'em up
and throw away the key.

So as I drove by that facility
thinking, oh my gosh, I

understand learning theory now.

This is what my dad was all about.

I didn't understand it, you know, as a
child thought, you know, one day I want

to be involved in a jail dog program.

That would just be amazing.

Anke: So had you heard about that
or was that just something where

you thought this would be a good
idea to bring those two together?

I

Lisa: just thought it
would be a great idea.

I hadn't heard about it.

Then I learned, I had some
colleagues in different parts

of the country who were paid.

I mean, they had paid positions
as trainers in facilities, excuse

me, I take a drink of water.

Hmm.

And, um, so I knew about it.

Um, there's no prison near us
that we knew about at the time,

so we, Brad and I kicked around.

My husband's a professional
dog trainer too.

If you've gone to our website, you kind
of know, know that, um, we kicked around.

Could we do something with our local jail?

Could we do it with a county facility?

But just never had the impetus to go
there and try to figure it out because

they were kind of short-term facilities.

And so the intention was there.

I'm a firm believer that if you set
an intention, you can do this right?

Do your dreams.

I keep this on my desk.

I've had it here for a
couple of decades now.

Um, so in 2012, in end of 2011
to early 2012, we got a call.

From the person who was a partner
in starting a jail dog program

just across the state line.

I live in the tri-state area of
Georgia and North Carolina, Tennessee.

So in Blairsville, Georgia, which is
just 25 miles from us, they were starting

a jail dog program in the Cowell,
Coldwell Probation and Detention Center,

where the stay was short, 180 days.

And they said, would you,
you know, be open to being

the trainers for the program?

I said, absolutely.

On one condition, it has to
be, the methods have to be

positive reinforcement training.

These men need to learn that
they can change behavior without

for fear or intimidation.

And they said, sure.

So it took, they were still in the, there
was a lot of red tape, as you can imagine.

Um, had to get the shelter.

There was a, a shelter organization,
a rescue organization involved,

and a whole bunch of legal hoops
that they had to jump through.

But in the summer of 2012, we
started that program, and at

that time it was one program.

We were it that, you know, the dogs.

The shelter dogs were trained, lived
24 7 with the detainees, the detainees,

detainees, work with them through the day.

And we were there once a week, um,
providing instruction and feedback and

training and coaching and counseling
and all the things that you do.

And what's really amazing, these
watching the anger and the, the.

Just the consternation for life.

Watching that dissipate in the
men and helping them understand

that patience, you have to have
patience that, so it might take five

minutes to help a dog learn a down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But look how easy it really was.

When we're reinforcing
the behavior that we want.

And about week two or three, there's
always a guy in there, most of them.

Some of them, uh, maybe three
quarters of them have children

because they're young kids who have
done, you know, involved in drugs,

substance abuse, um, and got locked up.

Um, someone would say, you know.

I could use this with my
kids, like, yeah, you can.

Anke: You should.

Lisa: You should.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So, so yeah.

So we, we, I put the word out to all
our colleagues, like, do you have

any books you're ready to get rid of?

Can you donate some
books by author friends?

And so people shipped books and.

Old copies of a whole dog journal, a
sub, you know, subscription magazine

and online magazine now, um, to us,
and we populated a library for them of

positive reinforcement dog training books
so they could have those to, to go to.

Um,

Anke: uh, like, you know, what's
the, like, what just kind of really

stood out for me was this to teach.

I mean, it's almost like.

These guys themselves, it was probably
the first time that they, even in

an environment to learn that, yeah,
you don't have to be dominant and

violent and whatever to, to kind
of achieve what you wanna achieve.

You just

Lisa: gave, you just gave me cold chills.

Yes, so true.

So true.

I remember Dave, Dave Proman.

I'm still friends.

We're still friends with, with
this man and we're, he has a

vintage VW bus like we do now, and
we plan to go camping with him.

I mean, we have relationships of
inmates who have rehabilitated.

They're on the outside now living
productive lives, who are amazing

people, doing amazing things.

But he said somewhere near the end of the
12 week program, he said, nobody's ever.

Treated me, given me
positive reinforcement.

I don't know how to handle it,

you know?

Um, yeah.

And, and, and for, for the
guys to understand that.

Your first thought doesn't have to
be lashing out or yelling that you

can learn through this incredible
being that you're with love and

compa and unconditional love.

Most of these guys have never
felt that unconditional love.

Yeah, few of them.

A few of them over the
years come from good.

Good, healthy families, but most of
them are products of the same kind of

dysfunctional substance abuse family.

Hmm.

Anke: Um, so are there any statistics or
any insights in how like, participating

in this program would've helped them to
basically, you know, recover their lives?

Lisa: So, yes.

So yeah, the superintendent of the
program was a numbers woman, uh, for sure.

And she was keeping
numbers, so they tracked.

You know, the, the men, after they
get out to see if they stay out and

running the numbers, um, and they still
do that throughout today, the normal

recidivism rate in the United States,
which is the number of people who return

to prison after being released is 75%.

75% go right back in for, you
know, many different reasons.

Some of which is they have no place to go.

They've learned it's safe, they're fed.

It's so sad.

Um, but in this program, the men who
graduate from this program, 66% stay out.

That's a massive drop now, that 66%.

Um, and it, and that percentage
varies somewhere, I think

between 60 and 66, depending on.

Um, but Diane, the superintendent, Diane
Hassett, the superintendent of the program

when she did the numbers, it is multiple
millions of dollars the state has saved.

Anke: Hmm.

Wow.

Lisa: By the men going through
this rehabilitation program.

Anke: That's incredible.

Yeah.

I wouldn't have even thought of the cost.

It's a

Lisa: win.

It's a win for us.

Oh my gosh.

Would you, I if you, if I, one thing
I can say to anyone who's listening

to this, find a way to volunteer.

Doesn't matter what it is.

It could be at a shelter, it
could be, um, reading, you know,

literacy for whatever volunteer.

It's so important for the group that
you're volunteering for and you'll

receive so much benefit, heartfelt benefit
from giving of your time and expertise.

Um, and you don't even
have to have an expertise.

You can learn that expertise, you
know, within that, that group.

Yeah.

Um, but it's a win for the men.

It's a win for the dogs because
they're placed, they're trained and

placed in wonderful, loving homes.

They find their forever homes.

It's a win for the state of Georgia.

It's a win for not having
a convict of on the streets

trying to find a way to survive.

Anke: Yeah, and it's a, it's a win
for the shelter too because, you know,

absolutely they have get the dogs adopted
because that's the objective really.

Right.

To train these dogs so they, they're
better or they're more likely, or

it's easier for them to get adopted.

Right.

That's the objective.

Lisa: It's called, the name of the
program is called the Rescued Program.

They have a Facebook page.

So go, go Google.

No, Google.

Um, you can Google Rescue Program, but
go to Facebook and I don't know if they

have an Instagram page or not, but, um,

Anke: I'll find it and I'll,
I'll pop and below follow them

Lisa: and you'll, you'll see.

Anke: So, so the, the intention
is to give the inmates.

A skill really give them a level of
connection they've never experienced.

Because, you know, we'll
melt when a dog looks at you.

You know, and imagine Exactly.

If you've never, if you've never
felt that level of connection to

another human, you know, it must
be like a double whammy for them.

So, and there's that skill,
there's that, and, uh, yeah.

So for the dogs, the shelters.

Prison.

The state it's like, and yeah.

And from their children as well.

You know, you mentioned it, you know,
like, it's almost like they come back.

They come back out as different people.

Mm-hmm.

Who will relate to other
people differently.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

So now as the program has grown
over the, the decades, um, the dog

training program is still a catalyst
for just what you said, right?

That connection and unconditional love.

The, the, um, there's a job
resume, building job skill.

Piece where the men learn how to
communicate and interview and write a

resume and, and job search, if you will.

They have a program run by, uh, United
Community Bank where it comes in

and teaches them all about finances
and how to manage their finances.

Um, there are, um, mindfulness
classes, men's mindfulness.

There.

What else is there?

Um, I'm blanking on a couple
of the other programs.

Oh, anger management.

Very important.

Very, very, very important.

And then a class on integrity.

Anke: Oh, wow.

Lisa: Yeah.

Anke: Yeah.

I mean, I think that that's
the, all the difference, right?

To really make sure they're
prepared to do something.

Have you heard of any, who actually
decided to become dog trainers?

Lisa: None that have become dog trainers.

Oh my goodness.

Or dog

Anke: walkers or like, you know,
say, well, hey, let me do, let,

let me do this as, as, as my.

Question

Lisa: what I'm forgetting.

One of the most important pieces
is a dog grooming program.

Oh.

So yeah.

One of the colleges in Blairsville,
um, provides their certificate,

but they go through 12 weeks.

We have a professional groomer who goes
once a week and helps the guys learn

how to professionally groom a dog.

And so they come out with an
on the job training and have

gone to work as groomers.

I know.

Two people who have professional
grooming businesses now.

Oh, who were in the program.

Anke: I mean, that's just, that's,
there's just so much hope in this,

you know, from so many different
angles that I like it almost.

You feel like there should be one
in every, in every town, right?

Area.

Right.

It would wonder if were

Lisa: the talk about giving back the.

First, the program started with
six dogs and six men in a very

small, tiny room with six beds.

All the dog stuff, they were like cramped.

A year later, the program had been
so successful that they increased the

space, but one of the first six men.

Uh, when he got out, he went to work
for a local groomer and then ended up

buying that business from the groomer,
was a professional groomer for many

years, and came back to volunteer as
a volunteer groomer when the original

groomer had to move on to other things.

So.

What

Anke: a full, full vicious cycle.

That's just beautiful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and so would
you, do you find that.

All the inmates relate to the dogs,
or is that sometimes, have you had

cases where you go, well, he's just
not catching it, like you can't,

the dog's not safe with that one.

Is there, I mean, are there differences
or are they all just kind of

melting in the presence of the dog?

I think

Lisa: that I would say probably
90% of them are just, they may

not have, they each have different
skill levels and different.

Um, different levels of commitment and
you also learn which ones are pretty

manipulative, you know, because they've
had, they've lived a life of having to

manipulate to get things that they want.

So we were pretty good at reading that.

And if we couldn't, the superintendent
could read it really well and

could, you know, share with us.

Um, but most of them give it.

Um, give it 80 to a hundred percent.

There are some that if they're not, if
they're, if they are not taking care

of their dog, I mean this, they're
up at four 30 in the morning and they

are busy through until dinner and
maybe even some things after dinner.

It is not a walk in the park to be in
the dog, what they call the dog dorm.

The other guys outside of, of the dog
dorm think it's a walk in the park

like, Ooh, I wanna be in the dog dorm.

I'm gonna apply.

And if they have the right
background, they can't have any,

um, serious crimes, no chimes, no
crimes against animals or children.

They have to go through a
rigorous interview process.

They have to write an essay on
why they want to be involved.

And when they get into the program, they
find out that it's some of the hardest

work they've ever done, but the most
rewarding work that they've ever done.

Anke: I love that.

So there is like an
application process, right?

So it's not,

Lisa: yeah, they're out.

Like if they're not doing
their part, they're out.

Like, sorry.

They have rule integrity.

Integrity rules.

Anke: Yeah.

Lisa: There something is violated then.

It's not a lose the spot.

It's not three strike,
you're out, it's for strike.

Anke: You're out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So there's basically a whole bunch
of people in that person and some

apply and participate in that program.

So you have to apply.

Mm-hmm.

And so do you find there's more demand?

Uh, like are they kind of like, oh,
we need more dogs because we have

so many people who wanna do it?

Is it like popular?

Yes.

Or is it just speaking
to the right people?

Lisa: It's it well, and we're, you
know, we're limited by space and we're

li limited by the number of, we have
there is, and we are, we just retired

from the program and, and colleague who
trained with us for a couple of years,

um, stepped into that role and we're
so thankful that he's carrying on and

doing such good work with the dogs.

Um, but we're a little bit limited
by space, and we normally have six to

nine dogs and six to nine detainees.

So they try to have some alternates.

Hmm.

So that if a person happens, their
release has a release date, comes early,

um, that, that per, that, that alternate
can step in or that alternate if their

sentence extends into the next class.

The.

The next class, they can step in and be
a mentor 'cause they've been through the

program and kind of guide, um, when we are
not there, when the trainer isn't there.

Anke: Mm.

I love that.

It's just such a, yeah, I don't know,
it's just like, you, you, you really

wish that this was like the norm that
every facility would have a program like

that, you know, because there's always
like, yeah, there's all these other.

Organizations and people who
are around who benefit as well.

Right.

So there is really nothing
that speaks against it.

Yeah.

That I can see.

There

Lisa: are several, several programs,
uh, animal programs within the state

of Georgia and Diane Hassett, who was
the superintendent of the facility

when we were in the program, has now
retired, but taken a part-time position.

She is the head of all of the
animal programs within the

Georgia Department of Corrections.

I.

Um, and so there, so all

Anke: the, all the animals, are
they all dog programs or do,

do they do things with cats?

There was a horse program, other animals.

Lisa: I think the horse
program has been shut down.

There's a, a, um, a service dog
training and a puppy raising program.

Um, so such, such, such important work.

Such important work.

And I have.

An article that I wrote for the Pet
Professional Guild Magazine some

years ago, and I'll provide you a
link with that so your, your viewers

and listeners can access that link.

And I'll also add a couple of videos
where you can see some videos of some

of the, the work that we've done.

I love that.

Thank you so much.

Yeah.

It's not about us.

We're the catalyst.

It's really the work the
men and the dogs have done.

Yeah.

Anke: So if somebody wanted to get
involved in some capacity, if somebody

says, well, I've got toys that I
can donate, is there somebody who

says, well, I wanna, I don't know,
volunteer in some like, or I'm a

group, or I can teach these guys.

Or like, you know, what's the
way, where would somebody go?

I

Lisa: think I, yeah, I would love
to see more of these programs,

I would say in your local area.

If you have the skills, um, to, to manage
and train, be the, be the trainer for the,

for the men and the dogs, then contact.

Um, the c communications director,
the person who's involved with com

communications or pub public publicity
within that correctional facility.

And it needs to be a facility that
has some sort of a long, where

the inmates have a, some sort of a
long term stay or even short term.

Ours was 180 days, so we ran
the program every 12 weeks.

Well, it was 12 weeks and we'd take
two or three weeks off and, you

know, for the interviews of the men.

Um, but.

Within a prison facility, um, you have
a longer stay though it's going to be

a little bit more challenging because
the security measures will be much more

stringent in a prison versus, um, a
medium facility, medium security facility.

We could have a clickers,
they have metal in them.

Anke: Ah, see this is the kind of
stuff you wouldn't even think about.

It can be

Lisa: taken apart and made
into a shank and a knife.

You know, um, so there are so
many things you have to think of.

We could have dog gear, we could have
collars and harnesses and leashes and my

colleagues in, in maximum security, um,
prisons couldn't have any of that, right?

No metal, no nothing, no staples,
no brads in pamphlets, nothing.

Because it could fall in the hands.

And these guys are creative
about making things like

Anke: that.

I was just saying, they're like, yeah.

I mean, sometimes you think like,
well, if they're that creative about

getting a job, it'd be helpful.

But, but it's, it's,

Lisa: but, but I've never felt safer.

I've just never felt safer.

I never, that's

Anke: interesting.

Yeah.

Lisa: But of course my dad, I
mean, I went to prison with my dad.

We went to family meetings.

Yeah.

When they'd have bands.

The inmate band, you know, in Marion,
he was in Mar Marion, Illinois, a

maximum security fac, a prison that
replaced Alcatraz and Alcatraz closed.

Mm-hmm.

So they were really hardened criminals.

And you know, I was in there
several different times as a, as a

young child and a young teenager,
and it just seemed normal to me.

Anke: That's interesting.

Yeah.

That's, that's, yeah.

I mean.

Yeah, it would be, wouldn't it?

Well, that's Fas it's fascinating.

My mind's spinning, so that's, yeah.

Awesome.

Thank you so much for sharing that.

Trying to get involved

Lisa: contact, contact, the, the
publicity or communications director

of that facility probably would be
good to maybe do some legwork ahead

of time because you can only have a
program if you have a, a rescue group

or a shelter who's gonna provide dogs.

Anke: Yeah.

Lisa: And you'll need, you know,
some sort of a steady stream of dogs.

And so, you know, chat with
your shelters and see if someone

might be open to doing that.

How, if, if that would be a possibility.

And then contact the, the facility
and see if you can get the.

The motion in progress.

And Diane Hassett here in,
um, Georgia, or in Georgia?

I'm in North Carolina,
but she's in Georgia.

She is happy to speak with
anyone for a couple of years.

Um, our, the whole team, the whole
rescue team, um, we spoke at the

American Correctional Association
conferences about the program to help,

you know, spread the word of, mm-hmm.

Of what we were doing and how valuable
it was for the men, the dogs, and

the state of Georgia to save, you
know, lots of taxpayer dollars.

Mm,

Anke: yeah, for sure.

Actually, it just popped to mind
are, are there any sort of criteria

for the dogs, because you wouldn't
perhaps, I don't know, like, not

throw like a severely traumatized dog
into the hands of a novice, uh, you

know, somebody who's just starting to
learn how to kind of relate to a dog.

Lisa: That's, that's a very
astute question for sure.

So we really need dogs who, who
are affiliative, who are pretty

comfortable, not overly fearful.

It's a very busy environment
in this facility.

Hmm.

Um, we oftentimes have to work diligently
to help a dog learn to walk on tile

because they've never, a lot of the
dogs were here in our area, a rural

area, are picked up in strays and
many of them haven't lived inside.

And so anything that's inside is scary.

Um, so we asked, we always asked the
shelters to do as, as much as they

could to bring us affiliate affiliative
dogs with, um, without any overt,

overt fear or anxiety who could
come into a noisy environment and.

Need only a week or two of adjustment.

We've had to let dogs go back
to the shelter because they were

suffering in the environment.

Yeah.

They just weren't making
progress and it was unfair.

Keep in the program.

Anke: Yeah.

'cause it needs to work for, for,

Lisa: for all parties really, you know?

Absolutely.

You know, we want the men to
feel emotionally and physically

safe and the dogs to feel
emotionally and physically safe.

Yeah.

And um, the guys, if they have a job and
a home and a place to take care of the

dogs, they can adopt their program dog.

Anke: Oh, doesn't happen often.

I, I just wish,

Lisa: yeah, probably 30,
30 to 50% of the time.

Wow.

Yeah.

Anke: Oh, that, I didn't even think
of that initially when we're saying

like, the dogs find their forever home
didn't even catch on that it actually

might be that person who trained them.

Yeah.

It could be that person.

Lisa: Yeah.

Anke: Wow.

That is fabulous.

Yeah, I mean, I think this is just
so inspiring on so many levels, so

thank you so much for, you know,
coming back and sharing that.

Lisa: Oh, you're so welcome.

I'm happy to share, share it.

It's, it was such a big part of our life.

We, we always used to say
we're in jail every Thursday.

Or I'd brought, you know, I'd be coming
back from the dog program and I'd,

you know, jump into a Zoom meeting
'cause I taught virtually, uh, I was

a separation anxiety trainer for seven
years and I'd you get back into my seat.

I said, yeah, I'm just back from jail.

Jail.

Anke: Well, that's right.

Lisa: Crime is over.

Anke: Awesome.

Well, thank you so much.

I'll pop the details to
find you outside of jail,

Lisa: right?

Oh, yes.

And

Anke: you.

Lisa: Yeah.

Yeah.

So this is something I've,
I've got some pictures too.

You know, I gave, gave guys copy of the
books when my, my book first came out.

Um, and we, I had them go through
those first few chapters every week.

I'd give them a little something
to do from my book, the original

Rocket Recall, teach your Dog to
come and they had so much fun.

You know, they had so much fun
thinking, oh this woman, this

woman actually wrote this book.

Yeah, how cool is that?

And then we have some, uh,
on demand, uh, videos now.

But I had them in hard, hard form
early on, you know, and gave them DVDs.

So they'll watch the DVDs and they'd
come back and say, oh, I saw how you

got Willow on the standup paddle board.

And um, it was just fun, you know, it.

It, it gave them something
more than just what we taught

when we were there in person.

Anke: Yeah.

Oh, that makes a lot sense.

As did the library that we helped,

Lisa: you know mm-hmm.

Anke: Curate to that.

Lisa: Yeah.

Anke: I mean, it must have like
totally changed the way they would've

experienced that time for them, right?

Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Yeah.

And it continues on, um, even
though we're not there now, it

makes my heart so very happy.

Mine

Anke: too.

Good.

Well, thank you so much.

Uh, yeah.

I'll pop all your details
underneath and if you know, we'll

pop the link to the article and
the videos, so yeah, definitely.

Let's, let's thanks so much.

Spread the word and make sure this
program's like that everywhere.

Such

Lisa: a joy.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.