Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome,

Lisa: Lisa.

I'm super excited to
have you here with me.

I can't thank you enough.

It's so delightful and we've chatted just
teeny tiny bit and, you know, I, this

promises to be a fun 20, 25, 30 minutes.

Anke: It will be, I guarantee it.

So let's just slide straight in and let
people know where you're based and, you

know, what's your business with dogs?

And what, what about Cold Nose College?

It's just so adorable.

Lisa: Oh, I love that.

And again, you know, kudos to my husband
and business partner who came up with that

name after, you know, many late nights.

Trying to come up with a company name.

I am located in the very
western tip of North Carolina.

So, um, we are, people think, oh,
you're, are you near the coast?

Like, no, it's 546 miles to
the coast of North Carolina.

It's a very long, or
long state, if you will.

Um, but it's rural.

It's very rural, but I'm two hours
from, uh, several major cities, and

we were, Up until just about two years
ago, now we have two other positive

reinforcement trainers locally, one
of whom was a student of mine with the

Victoria Steel Academy, and the other
went through the academy, they're both

graduates, so I'm so happy to be able
to refer to them, because we only now,

at Coldwells College, Brad and I have
been focusing on, uh, educating the next

generation of professional dog trainers
through the Victoria Steel Academy.

Um, so, um, here at, in this office,
working from home, I'm focused on my

own dog, of course, and helping him
lead the best life he can possibly lead.

And I'm still focused on promoting my
book, Rocket Recall, which came out,

gosh, almost three years ago now and
is still doing well, but, um, we can

talk a little bit about that later.

Um, but I think my, my main mission now
has been for lots of years, is making

sure that my dog and those people
I touch who have a dog, that people

understand the most important thing
you can do for your dog is helping them

feel physically and emotionally safe.

Because no matter what.

What we want our dogs to learn, and we
all want them to learn something, they

need to learn things to live, how to,
how to live in our weird human world.

But if, if anyone, dog, person,
rhino, fish, I mean, if, if a being

doesn't feel safe physically and
emotionally, they can't learn.

So feeling emotionally and physically
safe allows us to be able to learn.

Anke: That's so true.

And it's so overlooked still,

Lisa: you know.

I think it is.

I think it is.

Though, I'm so thankful that VSA, the
Victoria Civil Academy, you know, we're

teaching our students that there's
a difference between just doing.

So, 20 years ago, I've
been doing, 21 years.

How did that happen?

I now have gray hair.

I didn't when I started.

Well, maybe.

But I wanted my dog to do what I said.

I was still training with positive
reinforcement, but I wanted

Sit when I say sit, lay down
when I say lay down, go a mat.

Now, it's all about choice.

Or does it make sense?

Why am I asking my dog to do that?

Is that a skill that's needed?

Um, so You know, again, with feeling
physically and emotionally safe,

empowering a being, dog or person, um,
by giving them choice in their life is

what's critically, critically important.

Anke: Yeah, I mean, could not agree
more and it's, it's something that I

got to experience with my two, I mean,
the other two were, they, they came, you

know, from puppy and there's a happy go
lucky, nothing ever happened to them,

so they kind of almost like they roll
in a different way, but these two boys,

they had a start that you think like no
puppy should have and I, I experienced

it, you know, all I could find was like
train your dog to sit and train your

dog and none of it worked with them.

You know, none of it worked with them.

So where that's what got me started,
like there's got to be something else.

There's something missing here.

It doesn't make sense.

So I'd be curious how, You know,
what sparked your curiosity to look

beyond the commands, especially
with what you just said, when you

said, well, I was training positive.

So that was a good start, you
know, but what sparked you

to look in that direction?

Lisa: Well, let me go back a
little bit further in history.

Um, I, Brad and I trained our first
dog who came to us as a stray.

With old fashioned aversive techniques,
choke collars and prong collars, we

found a trainer in Atlanta, lived
in Atlanta at the time, and we

wanted our dog to be well trained.

We wanted our dog to behave.

So, we went to class and we were issued
a mat, a choke chain to throw at the

dog, a prong collar, a choke collar.

and a leash.

And we were taught to use those
tools very effectively and to

alpha roll our dogs when they
didn't do something that we liked.

And then, um, an Australian
Shepherd came into our home.

We had longed for an Aussie.

We'd moved to the, the mountains by then.

We had lots of space.

We knew The breed needed a lot of
mental stimulation and exercise.

We'd done our research.

And so Carter joined our home and
I wanted to do agility because

there were no classes around me.

I bought books and in the books, I
learned about positive reinforcement.

Oh my gosh, this is what my
dad used on prison inmates.

He was his chief psychology,
chief psychologist at the

prison system he worked in.

And I started using it with Carter.

And it's like, oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh, I have immediate buy
in, I have the most enthusiastic

learner, he's happy, he wants to
train with me, I don't have to feel

bad because I feel like I'm hurting
my dog, and the training's effective.

And fast forward a few months,
maybe six or eight months later, we

took our first professional agility
lesson, and two days later he was

hit by a car and tragically killed.

Anke: Oh my god.

Lisa: So, um, that's, you'll learn about
that in the, in my next book, but I,

I went into a three month depression,
didn't know it, didn't know that's what

I was in at the time, but um, clawed
myself out and said I want to learn

to help people, want other, I want
people to learn this a different way.

I want to help other people
learn, but it didn't mean I

was going to be a dog trainer.

I just wanted to like maybe help
our shelter and help friends.

Well, be careful, you know,
when you set intentions.

Be careful what you

Anke: wish for.

Lisa: Really delivered.

So I already had that.

But what caused me, even though I
was using positive reinforcement,

I think it was just evolving and
trying to understand why am I really

asking these things of my dog.

Um, and because I was learning more about
choice and who cares if your dog stands

when you might have asked them to sit.

You know, maybe we're just
asking them to, to hang out.

I'll say stay, my cue is wait, but
hang out there for a minute until

I, you know, ask you to move because
maybe I'm opening the gate or I'm

doing something that would make it not
safe for my dog, but standing's fine.

The dog doesn't need to sit.

Do I care if he moves a lot?

So I think it's just probably
relaxing everything in our life,

including my own pressure on myself.

to be or do a certain way based on
what professional dog training might

have said you need to be, right?

Anke: For sure.

So

Lisa: anything taken to the
extreme can be maybe not the best.

So, so thankfully Brad and I both,
we've been on this evolution together

through our whole life and career.

And we're, we both feel that way.

And I, I think in general, um,
You know, child education, and

I've not had children, so I can't
speak to this personally, I think

it's moved that way as well.

Um, so, thinking, thinking about using
positive reinforcement with my dogs

has not only changed my dog's life,
and feeling emotionally safe, and

physically safe, and giving choice, but
that bleeds into human relationships.

And doesn't this world need
more of that in general?

Anke: For sure.

So, I mean, this idea of a dog needs to
feel safe before they can learn anything

that makes all the sense in the world.

What are things that you, you
would suggest people, like if

I'm saying like, okay, all right.

It's the first time I heard about this.

How do you get started?

How do I, how do I, you know,
like, what does that even mean?

What does that look like?

I mean, I know when I feel
safe or I don't, you know, like

physically and or emotionally.

So how will I know
whether I don't feel safe?

And because we also know they're kind
of very good at hiding their distress,

so it's not always that easy to tell
how do I know whether my dog feels safe.

And if I get a sense that my dog might
not feel safe, then what are things

that I can do to, to help them relax?

Lisa: Brilliant, brilliant questions.

So, in order to understand a person or a
dog, in order to understand a being, we

have to be able to speak their language.

And, and if we can't speak to our
dogs verbally, of course we can

teach them words, but if we can't
speak to them, how can we understand?

Um, you know, humans, it might be neuro
linguistic programming and understanding

those body cues that people are giving us.

Am I sitting back like this or
am I, you know, really open?

Well, if we take the time to learn about
how dogs communicate with their body, what

I call dog body language, then we, we can
begin to understand their stress signals,

their appeasing signals, their fear
signals, their um, You know, I believe

all aggression is based on fear, you
know, because I'm going to aggress towards

something that I might be afraid of.

But taking the time to educate
yourself, Lilly Chin is a great

artist who does dog body language
photos and has written a great book.

There are many other resources
out there, but understand how

dogs communicate with their body.

Certain signals like a paw lift could
be an invitation to play or it could

mean I'm a little fearful right now.

So study that, learn that, and if
you wonder, is my dog feeling safe?

Take a few breaths, observe
your dog for a few moments.

If you think it's stress,
move to another environment.

Look around, look around,
scan the environment.

What's in the environment that
might be problematic for that dog?

You may think they shouldn't have
a problem with it, but really

it's all about what do they think.

So if in doubt, Leave.

If in doubt, change the environment
to one that that you think your

dog might feel more comfortable

Anke: in.

And I think even that, that, that level
of respect and empathy, I think it makes

all the difference that you're even asking
yourself, you know, how, like, yeah, I

mean, what's that like for my dog, right?

So I think that is, that
is a brilliant start.

So, you know, In terms of body language,
I mean, just remembering, you know,

when I was researching all the different
like, okay, how can I kind of, you know,

get my two dogs to be, you know, well,
I mean, I was never sort of looking for

control or for like, you know, Obedience.

I wouldn't, I was never into that.

I wanted to communicate well
enough to keep them safe.

That's really all I wanted, right?

That I could, you know, that's why the
rocket call, recall, really caught my

attention because I thought that was
one of the things that I was like,

you know, I want to make sure that
I can call my dog and I know that,

you know, if there's a car coming,
whatever, that I can rely on that,

that they'll at least stop, you know?

So, but I'd be curious to, you
know, because the main message I

took away is that like there's so
much conflicting stuff out there.

Do you find that even when we're talking
about body language are the experts

in agreement or, you know, because
I've seen a lot of things where Wow,

let's just call the spade a spade.

You know, I remember even somebody saying
that the lot of the interpretation or

what it's known about animal behavior
is like male researchers interpreting

a situation, you know, and what a man
will say, look, there's an alpha dog

who tries to dominate the other dog.

A woman would look at this and I'm like,
No, they're just trying to get on here.

So it's like, who's looking at it?

Who's describing the situation?

Might paint an entirely different picture.

Does that also apply to what's taught?

Lisa: You know, I think it can.

I think it can.

And, and I'm doing a lot of reading
right now in our patriarchal society.

So that could be a whole nother
conversation that I'm really not

qualified to talk about other than, you
know, as women, we probably lived it.

But, um, I think truly, if you If
you start with what I think are

trusted publications and trusted
authors to, um, Dogwise is an

entity that carries books that are
scientifically and ethically sound.

Um, at least that's, I don't think
there are any that aren't focused

on that, and certainly anything on
the Positively site or the Victoria

Stilwell site, you can trust.

And again, Lily Chin, who has a great
book and free downloads of posters

on, for cats and dogs on her site.

So that's a perfect way to start.

But you mentioned Rocket Recall.

My book, which I keep right beside me.

Um, the, why did I write it?

How can I say that in
about four sentences?

First, I wrote it to help people learn
that there is a, uh, an effective,

way that keeps your dog feeling
physically, emotionally safe while

you're training a life saving skill.

So that's it, life saving skill.

The first half of the book, I go into
the training to behavior concepts

that underlie, that are the foundation
that we can then build upon.

Not only The focus and attention
or recall exercises in my book, but

anything you want to teach your dog.

So while you think, uh,
do I really need recall?

Well, I think you do.

The call to come, right?

The general population may not
understand the word recall, but

we're recalling a dog to us.

We're recalling a child to us.

Hey, Brad, come over here.

We're recalling, you know, a person to us.

But it's really, you know,
Known as the, the Q, come.

Um, I prefer other Qs that are more fun.

My clients have chosen martini and happy
hour and cookie because it's just a word.

It's just a sound to a dog.

Anke: And you don't, you also don't want
to use something that you'll use all

the time every day in everyday language.

And the dog goes like, what?

Lisa: And I don't like the
word come for two reasons.

One, if you've adopted a dog, you
have no idea what that dog's prior

experience with that word is.

So they may have a A conditioned emotional
response is not so, feeling so good to

them like, Ah, I don't like that word.

Or, it can be said in the hardest
tone if we get frustrated.

GUM!

You know, who wants to come to somebody
who looks scary and is speaking sternly,

so, um, yeah, so, so that first half
of the book goes through all those

concepts, a tad bit of learning theory,
just why, you know, why something

works or why something doesn't, um,
and is a good groundwork before you

go into the recall training exercises.

And the simplest exercises are
teaching your dog name recognition.

When I say my dog's name it means look
at me and wait for further instruction.

I thought of this yesterday as Keaton
was headed for a creek which is just

60 feet outside my office window and
I didn't want him to get muddy again.

So I just said And a
happy toned one, Keaton!

And he just, he'll probably come.

He just looked at me like, Huh?

What mom?

Let's go this way.

So a simple name recognition, which
is so easy to teach using the, the

progressive steps in my book, can
stop your dog from doing something.

Not even a recall, right?

I didn't call him to come.

It prevented him from doing it.

Launched it into the creek and prevented
me from lots of mud on long hills.

So life

Anke: saving on both ends then, right?

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, so, um, so yes.

Feeling safe, physically,
emotionally, feeling happy.

Um, you know, how do we
know our dogs are happy?

Well, I think we know when they're joyful.

You know, and it's important to let your
dog be joyful and frolic and have fun.

I talked about this just
with Brad this morning.

I was thinking about an email I
want to send out to our community

next week prior to Valentine's Day.

I'm like, what's, what's the number
one gift you can give your dog?

And it's not tangible.

It's not a product.

It's time.

Time, it makes me cry.

Time well spent with your dog.

Our dogs are social creatures and
they want nothing more to be with us.

Yet so many dogs are banished to
other areas because maybe they don't

have the manners their people want.

Or if they're not, maybe
that's not the case.

Maybe Their people work all
day, and so they get little

interaction during the day.

I would tell you that if, if you
could ask a dog, what is it that

you want more of from your human,
they would say time with them.

Anke: That makes me cry too, and it's
one of, it's actually one of the reason

that I had to, you know, that, I was
40 when I got my first dog because I

always wanted a dog my entire life.

You know, as a child, my parents
wouldn't let me have one.

And there was always the part of me
that, well, I would, would have loved

to have a dog and I understand because,
you know, even as a child, it's like,

yeah, my parents were both working.

I was at school all day.

Right.

And that's always been the thing.

It's like, I don't want a dog
that's alone at home all day.

Right.

So I waited until I moved to Spain,
started my own business, where I

could work from home and I could have
the dog around every day, all day.

And that's when I thought
like, okay, I'm open.

I can have it.

I feel I can have a dog now, you know,
because I think it's just not fair.

If we can't give them the
life that they deserve.

Lisa: Yeah, it's, it really is a challenge
to, if you have two working adults,

or you're single, uh, how, how can you
make sure your dog's needs are met?

And so that's an overarching
theme of feeling safe.

Enrichment, physical exercise,
social enrichment, I mean, that

is really the crux of everything.

How do we meet that being's needs?

And, um, a lot of people aren't meeting
their dog's needs because they just don't

understand what those needs really are.

Anke: So what are some of the
most misunderstood needs that,

that You see in your work.

Lisa: I think, well, I think
most people understand that

physical exercise is needed.

They don't understand that mental
enrichment and mental stimulation

can be as tiring and better for
your dog than physical exercise.

So if you are exercising your dog
more in hopes of getting a calmer

dog, think twice about it because
you're really training an athlete.

So that, that dog may need more
calming enrichment, you know, time

spent with your dog, slow body
massage, a lot, take a long line.

A long line to me is
a 15 or 20 foot leash.

And I like the, the, the, um,
material biothane because it

doesn't pick up dirt or water.

And put your dog on a long line.

Make sure you're safe.

Maybe not so great for a neighborhood.

You might need to find a non busy street.

But take your dog on a 20 minute, what
I call sniffy walk or dog led walk.

The dogs see their world through
their noses and it's so enriching

for them to check out pemale.

And, you know, you know,
that's their social media.

is they're checking in, they're checking
out who's been there, what's there, what

sex is the dog, and let them pee, let
them mark, let them sniff, you know,

don't drag the, oh for God's sake,
please don't drag them away from a scent.

That'd be like, for me, that would be
like somebody taking an ice cream cone

out of my hand and making me leave it.

Slap your hand and then you'll have
your morning coffee, I'll go slap you.

I wouldn't be very happy about that.

So, so I think that's probably
the most misunderstood.

You know, though, depending
on environments, we live

in a very rural area.

We unfortunately have to
see dogs who are chained.

So, that dog's bottom level of
the triangle, triangle, Maslow's

hierarchy, Maslow's hierarchy,
those dogs don't even have that.

You know, so, it depends,
it depends on where you are.

But I think general, um, pet parents,
dog owners, guardians, um, all of

which I, I, you know, refer to them
as periodically, is, can probably be.

Um, a balance between physical
exercise and, um, mental stimulation

or, you know, mental enrichment.

Um,

Anke: yeah.

It's beautiful to see that
this becomes more recognized.

It's funny because when I had like
my first dog, Leo, you know, to be

honest, I thought, well, that's the
only thing that makes sense to me.

You know, I would let him sniff and
I'm like, yeah, okay, I won't let

you pee in the neighbor's door, you
know, whatever, you know, but, but

I would definitely, I still to this
day think, well, my job on this walk

is like your bodyguard, you know, so
it's my job to make sure you're safe.

There's no, like, keep an eye on, you
know, to make sure you're not getting

yourself in situations that, that
are kind of dangerous for anybody.

Yeah.

But other than that, the purpose of
the walk is for you to be able to, you

know, sniff and have a good time and,
you know, and get a bit of choice, you

know, and so I will literally, and you
know, the amount, but the thing is like

now I'm living in a, you know, in a
beach town and it's quiet and so nobody

messes, and I also have two really big
dogs now, so nobody messes with me, which

is brilliant, but when I had the little
ones, the boys, it was just the amount of

Well, call it criticism I got, you
know, when people go, well, you know,

you look at her, like it started from
like, you know, sort of when, when

you can hear them, like, you know,
when you walk past and go, look at

her being dragged along the street,
you know, and that wasn't even true.

It was just, you know, I didn't have
an eight foot, I had a shorter leash or

like my parents would always try this
retractable one, that weren't a good

idea, but you know, But, um, you know,
basically try and give them some space

and sometimes you go, oh look there's
something and then I'd be after that.

So, but I mean the dog would lead,
you know, and I'd be like, all

right, you know, as long as you don't
drag me along the street, I'm fine.

But the amount of, like, look at her.

And then you'd go, well, I No, no, no.

You need to be the boss.

The dog can't be in front of you.

The dog needs to be beside you and you
can't let them pee where they want.

And that's just never made sense
to me and it feels so reassuring,

you know, now hearing people like
you saying, well, actually that's,

they should get walks like that,

Lisa: you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I am here to tell
you, thankfully, I think.

Hopefully.

That old fashioned dominance theory that's
been debunked for decades and decades.

Um, uh, there's less and less of that, but
I am here after 21 years of professional

dog training, living with my dogs,
I'm here to tell you that your dog is

not conspiring to take over the world.

Absolutely not.

And I was thinking about this last
week and I was walking because

I'm, I'm, yeah, because of all
these years I've been dog trained.

I've been thinking about clients I've had
in the past and there was a client I went

to see for the first time, um, had this
beautiful, um, I think it was a poodle and

I was just coming in and we were beginning
to talk about things and they had a few.

really minor issues, uh, that
they thought were really big.

Okay, big to them.

That's important.

We need, need to address
the client's needs.

They have needs too.

But, um, the man got up out of his
recliner to go get something in the

other room and the dog jumped up on
the, on the recliner and laid down.

He came back and said, see,
see, he's being dominant.

I said, Have you ever thought,
have you ever stopped to think

that that just might be more
comfortable than the hardwood floors?

I never thought of that.

So

Anke: yeah, there's, I think there's
still a bit of work to do, right?

I think there is, there's, it's
a lot of, a lot has changed.

I think there's a lot of movement.

It feels there's quite a bit of
momentum in a much nicer direction,

but, um, you know, I think
there's still a bit of work to

Lisa: do.

You know, I think we'll always,
there will always be that.

I think the curve, hopefully, is a little
bit different, but there, there's, I'm

so, I'm so thrilled when I see people
on the street, um, and of course it's

not much here because we, we're 15 miles
outside of a town of 1500 people, so I

don't get to town or do city, you know,
the urban, my little small town walks with

my dog much, but I'm out in other places
and I'm seeing people with their dogs.

It just thrills me to see harnesses.

You know, so nothing's around
their neck that could damage

their esophagus or their trachea.

Um, and I keep telling all of my
students that something that would be

very good for their business And did
I mention, yeah, Aspiring Dog Training

Professionals is get a little card.

I never did this.

I said I was going to do it, never did it.

So somebody else needs to do it.

Get a little bit like
business shaped card.

And of course have your business
information on one side of it,

but the other side have it be
Um, I'll call it a click treat.

Have it be a compliment, like, Thank
you for being a dog guardian today.

Thanks for being kind to your dog,
however you want to phrase it.

And then when you see people doing
awesome things with their dogs,

which is 99 percent of the time, Give
them that positive reinforcement.

Let them know that It works
for the owners too, right?

Yeah, absolutely, it does.

You know, we did, we just
retired from, um, teaching a

dog training prison program.

So we spent twelve and a half years,
every Thursday we were in jail.

And to see the detainees go from Maybe
week three, when we start introducing the

concept on week one, and start working
with dogs, and you know, helping them

understand what positive reinforcement
is, and no, we're not going to use

that old fashioned stuff because most,
most of them come with that from the

environments they've been raised in,
um, because that's how they were raised.

It's about week three, a couple of the
detainees with children will say, I

can probably use this with my children.

I can't you can, it works with people too.

And thank you Karen Pryor, Now in Heaven,
who helped us understand all of that

in the book, Don't Shoot the Dog, which
was written as a little management text,

not a dog trainer text, by the way.

Anke: Isn't that interesting, right?

I would Actually, I would love to
have you back about that prison

experiment because I've read things
about experiments like that or projects

like that, and I'm totally intrigued.

So that I would love to have you back.

Oh, yes.

I'm

Lisa: going to raise my hand to come
back and I'll definitely talk about that.

It's something I love so much.

And then also, um, The next book I'm
writing, which is entitled, The Death

of a Dog Changes You, um, in addition
to losing Carter, um, I lost a dog at

six years old, and then in this book,
um, when you, you buy it, the, your, um,

listeners will buy it, or your watchers
will buy it, you'll, this is about

Kaylee, and how I worked with her, and
two weeks, she was four, two weeks after

this was released, she died suddenly.

This is

Anke: heartbreaking.

Lisa: Yeah.

Yeah.

And so every dog has brought
monumental changes to me

personally and professionally.

And so, yeah, um, that's the next.

Well,

Anke: that means I'm going to have
to, but I have to have you back twice.

In the meantime, let people know
where they can find out about you.

You know, I'm going to pop the book.

Book link and everything's
going to be in the show notes.

Lisa: You can find us two places.

One, really they're the same, just
two different pages on our website.

One is coldnosecollege.

com.

The other is rocketrecall.

com.

So, um, you have a link that you can add
or add, which you can download the quick

reference guide to the 12 most important,
important points to Rocket Recall.

So, you know, it's proven that if
you just pick up something to look

at a couple times a day, sure.

bits of, of reading that it
starts to cement in your memory.

So that's why that's a free download.

Um, and then there is a Rocket Recall
instructor handouts for trainers that

gives them, um, 19 handouts so they
can give them to their clients when

they're ready to progress in the, in the
systematic progressive road, uh, program.

Protocol.

And then there is a online course
over 42 video, how to videos, and

90 photos, which takes you through
in an online course, this book.

Both the Um, online course and the
handouts are about to have steep

discounts because Valentine's Day is
coming up, that v in, in in Valentine,

how deep that V shape is, those
are gonna be the deep discounts for

Anke: Ooh.

Awesome.

So we're gonna make sure that go,
comes out before that happens so

people can take advantage of it.

And, and

Lisa: if I didn't provide you with
a follow up, and I'll give you those

links so you can add those as well.

Anke: Awesome.

Well, thank you so much.

This was absolutely delightful and I'm
already looking forward to the next one.

Lisa: Oh, thank you.

I am too, Anke.

I just can't thank you
enough and stay warm.

I will.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Thanks so much for listening.

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And if you know a pawsome human
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Email me at Anke.

That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.