Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Marilyn.

I'm super excited to have you here.

Oh, Anke, thank you so much.

I'm really excited to do this.

This is gonna be a lot of fun.

For sure, for sure.

I have no doubts, so let's just
dive straight in, let people know

where in this lovely world you are
and what's your business with dogs?

Marilyn: Yes.

Yeah, I am in the us I am in Tennessee,
um, Dolly Parton country in the East

Tennessee, the, uh, smokey Mountains.

And, uh, I am a transplant from New
York State where I grew up until

about 20 years ago when I moved.

To the south.

So that's where I am now and I work
online since Covid, I made that pivot.

And I work with people online.

So even though I'm here in beautiful
East Tennessee, I can work with people

anywhere in the world, which is a joy.

Anke: I love that.

I love that.

So you've just told me just before, you've
been in that game for quite a while.

Mm-hmm.

So what's the changes?

What's the biggest change you've
seen since when you started?

Mm-hmm.

Compared to what?

What we're dealing with today.

Marilyn: Yeah, I, I have been
fascinated with training dogs

ever since I was a child.

And I started to do it as I was, I,
I worked as, as a teacher, that was

my real job for, um, for many years.

I.

And I worked with human children, human
students, and dog students simultaneously.

So I started working seriously
and professionally with dogs

and people 40, 50 years ago.

That was a long time and.

Back then the, the way we approached
teaching dogs and training dogs was

very different from the way it is now.

There are still some remnants
of that old, uh, approach.

Those old techniques, there's still
hanging around a little bit, but

there's a huge evolution going on.

In the dog world, in how we view dogs
and how we look at dogs, and that

is thanks to all of the, not only
the, the research that's being done

in universities around the world.

Also in the way that very
forward thinking, progressive,

compassionate people are
approaching their work with dogs.

And a lot of those people, I feel,
some of them I know personally, but

some of them I just follow and I
feel as if all of them have been my

mentors in the way I have completely
transformed the way I work with dogs.

And what I found, um, I.

When Covid hit and we all had to really
do some quick adaptations of how we work.

Um, what I found is I started to talk to
people who were not just in my geographic

area, but people all over the world.

And what I discovered was that
there was a common thread.

Across the globe of dogs that were
distressed, dogs that were traumatized,

dogs that were highly sensitive, and
were having a lot of trouble just

functioning in daily life in society.

So I was, I didn't expect to find that
because I had worked, been working locally

with, with dogs in my own geographic area.

But as I sat back and thought about what
I learned from these people all over the

world and what I had been observing with
the dogs that I worked with personally, I.

I saw, yes.

I, I can see that's the piece
that was missing when I was

working with these dogs.

I was using an old approach, um,
which was still, it was positive.

It was, I mean, we never did anything,
uh, aversive or harmful to the dogs.

But it was still addressing those
feelings, those big feelings that

dogs were having by trying to change
the behavior that was a result of

those feelings instead of really
addressing the feelings that were

really at the root of what was going on.

Anke: That makes so much sense.

I'm curious, do you find that that, uh.

Over the years, dogs
are more sensitive now.

You know, like, is it, is it that in
older days people just didn't kind

of pay that much attention or just
intimidated the life out of a dog?

Or, yeah.

Or like, are dogs more exposed
to more things or to more like,

stressful situations or, or is that
just the perception that dogs seem

to be more, you know, I don't know.

Like I've see, I've read
things where it's just like, oh

yeah, there's more dogs with.

Reactivity with kind of behaviors that
would stem from some kind of, um, you

know, stressed out stage kind of, you
know, so is that, is that getting worse

or is it just that we're noticing it more?

Marilyn: That, that is really
the question, isn't it?

That, that really gets to the whole
point of, of working with these dogs.

Are they getting worse or
are we just noticing it more?

And I'm not sure what,
what the answer to that is.

I can tell you what my intuition
tells me is going on, but of course.

You know, that's, that's
just my feeling about it.

And as the more I talk to people
who are caring for these dogs,

the, the more I understand about
what's going on with the dog.

So

the, the research that I've seen has.

Enormous percentages of dogs, like I've
seen percentages, like 80, 85% of dog

owners who were polled about what their
dogs were experiencing, said that their

dogs were reactive or hypersensitive.

That's mind blowing when you think
about it, but that's only the people who

were asked and answered the percentage.

So do, do more people answer
questionnaires like that?

If the, the question, you know, relates
to what they're going through and the ones

who say, nah, that doesn't apply to me.

They don't answer the questionnaire.

So, you know, does that impact the result?

Who, uh, who knows?

But here's what.

I can intuitively sense from the
people that I talk to is that

we, we have a society that is.

Changing at such a rapid pace.

You know, there's probably been
more change in the last 10 years say

than there was in the last hundred.

Who knows?

I'm just making up those numbers, but
just, just to kind of, it's massive.

Get the, the idea across and dogs.

Are animals that don't have access to,
you know, understanding technology or

hearing news or, or any of those things.

They are just trying to make
sense of the world around them.

And so I, I think it's
a, a two-pronged problem.

I think that.

The dogs are struggling to keep up, and
some of them have a capacity to do that.

Some of them have more of a.

Of an ability to adapt.

And of course adaptability is key
because any, if we can't adapt,

we're not going to survive.

So some of some dogs have the ability
to adapt and, and they do okay.

Others struggle to adapt.

They have a more sensitive nervous system.

We know that that's true of people, right?

There is something called highly sensitive
person, and that's been demonstrated

and researched and all of that.

And we also know that that high
sensitivity applies to animals as well.

So I think the dogs that are naturally
highly sensitive, struggle more to

adapt to this fast changing society.

So I think that's one piece of it.

And I think the other piece of it is
that the people who are caring for dogs.

Maybe they're adapting to the society
changes, but they're not adapting

when it comes to the tools they
use to help their dogs, to raise

their dogs, to train their dogs.

They're using outdated methods
and beliefs and systems.

To address, um, the sensitivity
of a dog that's struggling.

So mm-hmm.

It's kind of like, you know, two
opposite forces crashing together.

Anke: Totally.

Marilyn: And, yeah.

Anke: Do you think that also
plays a role, uh, now, because

when you think about that, like,

like, like my, my grandpa, right?

He went.

He, he left university and took a job
and that was the job he had, right?

So my dad changed two or three
times throughout his life.

I can't even count how
many times he changed.

Right.

So, I mean, that's probably
not helping either.

Like even practically.

When looking how, how much
dogs kinda like the routine of

knowing what's gonna happen.

Like our lives are crazier.

Mm-hmm.

There's a lot more irregularity.

It's not like, okay, go to him.

And I actually now reminds me of my Leo,
like he hated being left alone, you know?

Mm-hmm.

It was a real big problem until I started
going to yoga classes twice a week.

I was working from home, so he
was like, sometimes he'd be like

weeks without being alone, and all
of a sudden I had to go somewhere

and he never knew what was coming.

Right.

And there he was always on edge.

The moment I was like, okay,
every Tuesday, every Thursday,

she grabs this, this mat, and
then I know what's gonna happen.

That was the first time I saw him
settle down on the sofa when I was

about to leave because he knew.

Mm-hmm.

What was, and I think, do you
think that plays a role as well?

Oh,

Marilyn: for sure.

For sure.

Um, it, it, because what you're
talking about is predictability.

Yeah.

And are.

Our brains are hardwired for
predictability because that keeps us safe.

Yeah.

And that's one of the things that's
missing with a, a lot of our traumatized

or sensitive dogs, maybe they come, came
from situations where they either had

no predictability, so they never knew
what was going to happen next, or the

predictability was there, but it was
something sad and dangerous and scary.

Mm-hmm.

so yeah, predictability is huge.

And when I work with traumatized
and sensitive dogs, that's one

of the things that we, um, I.

But that's one of the pillars of
the program that I use to help them.

And this is a program that
I created from scratch.

Hmm.

Because none of the traditional
dog training programs were

appropriate for helping dogs.

They were all focused on changing
the behavior that you see instead

of looking at the reason for
the behavior that we can't see.

That's.

Beneath everything.

So, you know, I looked at what, I
actually looked at what therapists

do for humans, and there are, there
are a few, um, people who, who.

Have skills in both areas, and they
work with dogs, but they also had a

career, or currently have a career
as, um, a psychotherapist for humans.

And so the two skills are
very closely integrated.

So I looked at that and that's,
that's what I based my program

on, because I already knew, I,
I knew how to train behaviors.

I've been doing that for decades,
so I knew how to do that, but that

wasn't helping the sensitive dog.

So I had to ask what, you know, what
can I do for them where they can,

you know, feel, feel safe enough?

I.

To learn because they didn't feel safe.

And that was, that was one of
the reasons they couldn't learn.

They were constantly in
this fight or flight.

You know, am I, am I safe?

Am I not safe?

What do I have to do?

Do I have to run away?

Do I have to fight it off?

And that's where you get dogs that,
you know, explode into this barking,

frantic, you know, hyper arousal
because they feel like they have to

make the scary thing go away, and
they have to look tough and dangerous.

So, and it looks like aggression.

And people say, why is that dog,
you know, my dog isn't aggressive,

but why is he so aggressive?

And well, that, you know,
aggressive is something d you know,

aggression is something different.

That dog is just scared.

Anke: Yeah.

Yeah.

Marilyn: So

Anke: I saw that actually with mine.

He got bitten when he was 11 months old.

Yeah.

And he was, you know, and he was
trying, and his whole, like, you could

see it in his little, like his whole.

Perception of the world is, well,
he had, you know, I found him in the

street, so he knew probably by then that
the, the world wasn't that friendly.

Right.

But, um, you know, he was quite
happy to approach like, I'm cute

and you know, it, you know, and
that dog didn't take that very well.

Right.

And so he was never quite the
same after that, you know?

Yeah.

Because that, that sense of
safety, that sense of, um, yeah.

It's, it's kind of, there was always
that sense of, of dangers and he would

like when there was like a big male
dog in confined spaces, but he would be

that little dog that went off, you know,
because it was, and you could really see

it, how it was about like, no, no, no, no.

I'm actually scared shitless here
and I just want this thing to go away

and this is all I know how to do.

The other one would sort of shrink
heat, height, and flower pots.

You know, so he was literally the
opposite in a sense because, you know,

he had lived the first few weeks in
environments that no dog should, you know?

And it's really interesting to
see how that shows up, you know?

Whereas the big girls now, mm-hmm.

They've not ever had anybody threatening
that sense of safety in the world.

And it really, mm-hmm.

It's night and day.

So what's a what in your experience,
like, or, you know, in your program

or like, what's the, you know, what's
one thing about safety or feeling safe

for a dog that you wish people knew?

Marilyn: Ah, yes.

And so what happened with your guy?

I, I can actually relate a similar
story and I'll do that in a minute,

but what happened with him is that,
as you said, he walked up to the

other dog, like, here I am and I wanna
make friends, and the dog bit him.

And so his trust was just shattered.

Anke: Yeah,

Marilyn: and trust is something
that is so fragile that once it's

broken, it takes a long time.

I.

To put it back together again.

And sometimes you can't.

And it depends on, it depends on the
dog's, uh, nature and personality and

his, you know, his, the way he perceives
the world around him and so forth.

Whether he is able to do that.

Some dogs can't and, and some dogs
can, but what I wish people knew about

safety, what a, what a great question is.

That feeling safe is something that
happens internally in an individual.

You can't teach it.

You can't train it, you can't.

I.

Persuade a dog to feel safe.

So if he's scared of something, you
can't talk him out of being scared.

You know, people will try to do that.

Like, oh, it's okay, don't worry.

Don't be scared.

Safety is a felt sensation
that is inside the animal.

It comes from a belief, and if they don't
believe that the environment around them.

It is not dangerous that there are no
threats, that they are free to move about.

And also the other piece of that, of, of
feeling safe that's so important is dogs

must know how to find their safe exit.

So if they're in a situation
where, um, something scares them.

They have to know how they can
escape it, how they can exit,

how they can get away from it.

Because one of the, one of the.

Safest things that we can do to help dogs
that feel scared is give them distance

from the thing that would be, that's the
first thing that I tell people to do.

If your dog is scared of
something, get distance from it.

The dog will tell you when that
distance is enough for him.

And it's different for each dog, and it's
different in each situation, but you need

to get far away from it and, and what
people tend to do often is the opposite.

They will tell the dog, now
sit quietly and watch this big

scary thing coming toward you.

It's like, you know, I, I gave this
example, uh, to someone not long ago.

So imagine that you're standing
on a street corner and you

see a bus coming at you.

You're not gonna stop
and think what to do.

You're gonna get outta the way.

But suppose there was somebody
standing next to you and said,

now I want you to sit here and
I want you to just look at me.

Don't look at that bus.

Just look at me.

And I want you to sit here quietly.

Oh my God.

Does that make any sense?

Are you gonna feel better?

So, um, so I think that.

You know, feeling safe is
something that you have to believe.

If you jump out of the way and you
go stand, like inside a building,

you go, huh, okay, I feel better now.

I feel safe because you took action.

So when dogs are afraid of something,
in order to regain their sense of

safety, they have to feel free to
take the action that their automatic

nervous system is telling them to take.

Hmm.

So jumping out of the way
of the bus is automatic.

You don't think about that.

So, right.

So the dog has to have the freedom to
jump out of the way to find that safe

exit, to know where it is, and knowing
where it is helps the dog believe

that he's safe, because if something
bad happens, I've got a way out.

I've got a way to be safe, and I know
where my safe exit is, and just knowing

it's there, whether they use it or
not, but knowing it's there helps.

And the problem that happens with
a lot of sensitive dogs out in the

world is that when we take them out
in the world, they're on a leash.

We need to use a leash.

We need to keep our dogs safe.

We can't just let them
randomly roam wherever because

the world today isn't safe.

30, 40, 50 years ago, it was
safe for dogs to do that.

You know, I can remember, I don't ever
remember dogs in my family having a fence.

They wandered around, they did what they
wanna do, and they came home, you know,

and the neighborhood dogs did that.

We can't let our dogs do that anymore
unless we live in a big, open space

in the country, but most of us don't.

So the dogs have to be on
a leash, but what does that

leash do for a frightened dog?

It cuts off their freedom to escape.

It makes them feel trapped.

Anke: I actually, you know, actually
did that a couple of times because

Leo was literally, what I'd noticed
was when we out sort of on the beach

in a wide open space, he was fine.

Yeah, but when it was in the, in the
center where we lived in a little narrow

cobbled stone and there was like, you
know, and he, and I remember like with

dogs I knew, you know, when people
would come across, I would, and he was

like getting like his little tail up
and I know he is gonna go for that dog.

I'm like, okay.

And I unclipped his leash.

Because it was pedestrian
like there were no cars.

And I also only did it
when I knew the dog.

Right?

Yeah.

And, and then he'd be like.

Alright, do, do, do, do, do.

And nothing ever happened.

So, because that was literally, you
could see it in his little body.

Like he knew he had agency,
like he could run off and,

you know, he was free to move.

So he had no longer had the
need to actually, you know,

like launch at that other dog.

It was really, yeah, like, it's
so counterintuitive though,

Marilyn: right?

Isn't it though?

Yes.

And, and, and so much of what I tell
people to do is counterintuitive.

And, and the reason it is, is
because we have been culturally

conditioned our whole lives to believe
these, these out of date methods.

And there, you know, they have
a system in an order to them.

So we gravitate toward them because
it, you know, like this is what we do.

This is how you teach a dog to sit
and to stay and to come when called.

Problem is that when you really need the
dogs to do those things because there's

potential problem looming in the distance
that all of it, it all falls apart.

Yeah.

And

Anke: when they don't trust you
enough, they're not gonna come when

it's, you know, when it's like,

Marilyn: yeah.

And if they're, if they're scared,
they're gonna automatically do

what they need to do to feel safe.

And sometimes what they do puts
them in harm's way even more.

And that's why we, we, we
really need to protect them.

Yeah.

So.

You know that it, it can be a
conflicting situation, but I

think the bottom line is that.

In order to work with a sensitive
dog, you have to create an environment

or a context or a circumstance
where that dog knows he's safe and

knows that he has an escape route.

And whether that's working with him
inside your home or in your backyard,

or in a safe place where the dog feels
relaxed, that's where you need to start.

And the mistake that people make is that.

They put the dog into the triggering
situation, figuring that that's

where they're going to teach the dog.

But the thing is, the dog's, the
dog's learning brain is shut down

when he's in fight or flight.

He can't think.

And he, that's the same us, isn't it?

Not that he, he's not being
difficult or stubborn.

And that's a mistake that some people make
own, not, not because they're unkind, but

just because they can't figure it out.

Hmm.

They're missing a piece of information.

So if they think, you know, the dog
is just being difficult, disobedient,

stubborn, but that's not it at all.

Anke: I think, do you find that?

'cause that's something that I've
heard, you know, or like this,

oh, he does that on purpose.

Like he does that to peeve me off or
he's being defiant or like, you know,

that whole disobedient as if the dog.

Had some secret agenda there, you
know, to make your life difficult.

And I've never seen it like that,
but I've taken a lot of like

criticism before, not being strict
with my sensitive dogs, right?

Because I think, you know, well
the last thing you need if you

are already feeling unsafe is
somebody who being harsh with you.

Like that made no sense to me.

Marilyn: Yeah.

There will always be critics who
are, who think they know more

than you do about your own dog.

Anke: Right.

I'm just paying.

You're gonna get loaded.

Oh, they're,

Marilyn: they're always there and, you
know, we just have to live with them,

but we also have to recognize that
they don't have all the information.

Yeah.

That they're, you know, the, and, and.

Uh, you know, basically it's like,
thanks, thanks, but no thanks,

you know, that kind of thing.

Um, but, and I always tell people,
your intuition is your best guide.

Mm-hmm.

You do what your, your gut, because your,
your heart has its own intelligence.

Yeah.

And if your heart is telling you
that this is the right thing to

do for your dog, it doesn't matter
what anybody else is telling you.

Yeah.

Even me.

If I tell you something that
your heart doesn't, uh, align

with, don't listen to me.

But

Anke: that's, that, that requires
quite a level of sort of confidence

in your own judgment, you know?

Yeah.

And, and it's, uh, yeah.

I think that's that whole journey
that I've been on as a, you know,

well, like, okay, I want, all of
a sudden my little street dogs,

I, all of a sudden I had dogs.

Oh.

You know, so I've always wanted
to, but they did come at, you know,

when they happened to cross my
path and this whole advocacy piece.

Has been the journey, right?

To go from like, yes, I don't know.

You know, other people know
better than I do to going mm-hmm.

No, no, no, no.

I will look at my dog.

Yeah.

My dog is the one who knows.

You know?

I think that's been quite a journey.

Marilyn: No one except you has the
relationship with your dog that

gives you the information you need.

You have access to information
that nobody else does.

Anke: Yeah.

Marilyn: So you, you need to use it
and, and I think you're right, it does

take a certain confidence and people,
people do feel a little intimidated

and they do think well, because I don't
really know for sure what the answer is.

Then that other person
must know more than I do.

Anke: Yeah, it's, but that's not true.

Think it's, it's, no, it's not true.

And, but I think it is typical, like
in all areas of life really, so.

Mm-hmm.

I really would love you to share a little
bit about that course with the beautifully

provocative title, because that
really is almost like that next step

that really helps people to say,
well, okay, this makes sense now.

Where do I start?

Marilyn: Yeah, so this, this
little course, I'll give

you the title in a minute.

And it is a provocative title,
which I chose with a, a very

clear intention in mind.

Um, this came about because.

I was, I was answering questions about
this topic over and over and over again,

and I finally decided that this was
something that needed to be addressed.

It's a very specific topic, but it covers
an awful lot of the problems that people

are confronting with their sensitive dogs.

So it is a mini course.

Um, and so by mini course, I
mean, you can go through it fairly

quickly and it's self-study.

You can go through it at your own pace.

You have access to it.

Once you buy it, you, you
have access to it forever.

It never expires.

So the title of this course is Stop
Desensitizing Your Sensitive Dog.

I just could not love it more.

I know.

So let me, let me just say a
little bit about desensitization.

I'm not opposed to it.

It's not a bad thing.

It is a tool.

It is an effective tool that can be
used in behavior modification, but

just like any tool, if it's used
inappropriately, it's gonna do damage.

If you need a screwdriver and you use
a hammer, you're gonna make a mess.

So with with desensitization, it is
often recommended as like the go-to

solution for any dogs that are reactive,
sensitive, you know, hyper aroused, all

of those things, just desensitize the dog.

But nobody tells you how to do it.

It's actually a very complex
process and people who are

trained and who are professionals.

In the area of behavior modification
or behavior analysis or psychology,

you know, all of those fields,
people who are professional and who

are trained know how to use this.

It involves collecting a lot of data,
and it involves using that data to

determine the next step in the process.

But people don't do that.

Do they, when they desensitize,
they just grab a, a pouch of treats.

They take the dog out.

That's into the, the situation.

It scares the dog, and the dog
gets frantic and over arousing.

They start feeding the dog treats and
they think they're desensitizing the dog.

That's not what desensitization is.

So I'm telling people who have a
sensitive dog to stop doing that.

Just stop doing that.

But you know, it, it's easy
for me to say, stop doing that.

And they're gonna go, well,
what, what am what to do?

You know, what am I supposed to do?

So that, and that's a good question.

So that's why I created
this little mini course.

And, um, it starts with it, it
has three main pillars to it.

We start with bringing the
dog into a more relaxed state,

and that's, that is a process.

You know, it has to do with
co-regulation, which means that

the dog is mirroring your feeling.

So it has to do with getting yourself
settled down first and then creating.

We talked about
predictability before that.

Powerful for sensitive dogs.

And then it talks about the, gives you
like an overall view of the system of

not bringing the dog into situations
that they're scared of and then feeding

them treats and think, thinking that
that's gonna make the fear go away, but.

It's taking a dog that is relaxed and
then has a sense of predictability about

the world around him, and then gradually
increasing his capacity, the capacity

of his nervous system to process things
that are new and different around him.

And that's a process.

It's not a quick fix.

It doesn't happen fast.

It happens gradually and
consistently over time.

But that's the, you know, that's
the outline of that little mini

course, and we can make it available.

I know you're gonna put a
link in the show notes, link

Anke: in the show notes.

So if you're watching
this, listening to this,

Marilyn: yeah.

You know, it's.

It's, it, it's not, uh, a highly
expensive course, but it, it does

have a lot of valuable content.

So it, it does have a price.

It's only $97 us.

Um, you have access to it forever, and
as soon as you purchase the course, you

immediately can start working on it.

There's no waiting time at all.

You can immediately start.

To work on it.

And you also, if there's something in it
that you have a question about, people

will sometimes email me with questions.

And I, I don't, because this is, um,
a self-study course, it doesn't come

with extended email support, but I can
certainly answer a question in any.

I love that.

Anke: Um, you know, the way you
explained it, you know what feels

so powerful to me about that?

Is that when you actually address
something at the root, when it's not just

about, okay, how do I stop my dog to bite?

The mailman in the Anke, you know,
it's when it's about increasing

capacity to deal with new situations.

Mm-hmm.

Then it takes care of the
mailman and it takes care of the

neighbor's cat and it takes, you
know, like all the things mm-hmm.

Will settle.

It's not just like one particular
thing that, that it will address.

Is that correct?

Marilyn: Uh, absolutely and absolutely.

Um, and, and I can just quickly
tell you, I also have a Covid puppy.

I, uh, adopted him at 10
weeks in January of 2020.

Oh, so that tells you.

That tells you what the first
two years of his life were like.

And one of the things that he did,
just, just to kind of respond with an

example to what you just mentioned,
um, one of the things that he did very

early on is whenever a delivery came
to the house, he would get frantic.

He would go from window to window
to window, and he would bark

and bark and bark and he would
just be, be really over aroused.

So, um, instead of doing the things
that, you know, the old style training

would say is like, cover the windows
so he can't see or pull him away,

or, uh, tell him to sit and stay.

Instead, I did what, um, what I eventually
incorporated into my program because this

dog radar was, was like my Guinea pig and.

So I went over to him and I
said, what's going on out there?

What do you see?

And I just told him that I understood
that he felt a little bit worried

about, you know, this person,
and I know that looks different.

And so I just went through the
whole thing of talking to him in

a way that was tell, letting him
know that I understood how he felt.

And I wasn't telling him not to
feel how he felt, but just that I

hear you, I understand you, and so
forth, and let's look, let's watch

this together and see what happens.

And the good thing is that the scary
thing went away as we watched it.

You know, it went away.

There was a big man and he was carrying
boxes and you know, all this scary stuff.

But he was barking and it went away.

And then I told him he did a good job.

Thank you for taking care of that problem.

So it gave, you know, his
self-esteem and so forth.

And what happened over time
was that people will say, well,

didn't the barking get worse?

Because you were reinforcing that
fear, rewarding him for barking,

Anke: you know?

Marilyn: Yeah.

You don't reinforce fear.

What I was doing was telling
him that I knew how he felt

it and his feelings were okay.

It was okay to feel the way he felt.

I was there and I wasn't
worried about it myself.

So there was a little co-regulation going
on that he could mirror my feelings,

but I wasn't telling him that he,
he, to stop feeling the way he felt.

Mm-hmm.

And what gradually happened over time
and where we are now five years later,

is that when there's a delivery, there
are times when he will simply ignore it.

He might do a couple of little
woof, woof, woofs But then he'll

just settle down and ignore it.

But sometimes he will go to
the window and he will bark and

I'll go, Hey, what's going on?

And then he'll come back to wherever I
am and he will look at me and I'll say,

oh, there's somebody out there, right?

Let, oh, thanks.

I'm glad you let me know.

Go check it out.

And he will go to the
window and look at it again.

But his level of arousal is very.

relaxed He just gets excited
because, oh, there's somebody there,

there's somebody doing something.

Look at that.

Come check this out.

Mom.

Do you see this?

I go, yeah, I see it.

No big deal.

Yeah.

So that's where we are, and that's,
that's part of that, that point that

I made earlier is that we have to let
dogs know that we're on their side.

I, you know, I get it.

I, I, I know that that feels scary to you.

Mm.

Anke: I think that validating the feeling.

I think it's the same, like we get
that, you know, when you are, when

you are like agitated over something,
somebody goes like, oh, it's no big deal.

Just calm down.

You're, you are over,
you are overreacting.

You know, like this is like, this is
the short way to get you nose punched,

Marilyn: you know?

Yeah.

I imagine if you're angry about
something and the person you

are angry at says Calm down.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

You

Anke: know, it's that
invalidation, it's that being

misunderstood and underestimated.

I think that's, I mean, we as
people, we hated and I think

we do it to dogs all the time.

Marilyn: Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

And we need to stop that.

And that's why I, I agree.

Of course, you stop, stop
desensitizing your sensitive dogs.

So anyone who wants to sign up for
that, it's, um, it's available.

Um.

And I, I think it, it will
give you information that

you didn't know you needed.

Mm-hmm.

But when you get it,
you'll say, oh my gosh.

Oh, I wish I had known this.

Right.

Anke: Well, so where, you know, where
can be, I mean, obviously I'm gonna pop

the link there, but if somebody wants
to get in touch with you, wants somebody

wants to hire you, want, wants to find
out what you know, what are you up to,

where can people go and connect with you?

Marilyn: Um, one way is to, um.

Uh, send me an email.

My email is, is really simple.

It's Marilyn, M-A-R-I-L-Y
n@marilynmely.com.

And you can put that
in the show notes too.

Just send me an email, say,
I'd like to work with you.

Here's a little background on what I need.

And then, you know, we can get together.

And what I like to do when I work with.

With someone you know, on, on a
specific issue with their dog.

And we're working together either in
my group program or you know, for a, a,

like a one-off personal support call.

Uh, I like to talk to them first.

So we might set up like a quick,
you know, 10, 15 minute call.

Just get on a Zoom call, we'll
meet face to face, tell me what

you need, and then I can tell you
if I can support you with that.

And then we can, you know,
decide what the next step is.

Anke: That makes

Marilyn: sense.

So yeah, so send me an email.

Um, occasionally people will message me.

I have, um, a Facebook group
Dog Wisdom Workshop on Facebook.

Uh, you can ask to join that group.

You can, you know, private
message me on Facebook.

That's one way also.

Um, and then my website is.

Marilyn mely.com.

But in order to get to that website, you
need to put WW https www in front of it.

Otherwise it doesn't go anywhere.

Doesn't go, it doesn't take
you where you wanna go.

Okay.

Okay.

We're gonna gonna make that,

Anke: make that clear.

So thank you so much.

This was an absolute delight, and, and
I think, uh, anybody with a sensitive

dog will, you know, will listen to this
more than once and, uh, hopefully check

out your course because these dogs are
brilliant teachers and beautiful white

souls that I think definitely deserve.

To spend a little time to understand
them and to give them what they need.

Yeah.

Marilyn: Yeah.

And I think what most people really,
really want is happiness for their dogs.

Yeah.

And that's my goal when I work with
everybody, is we have to find a way

to bring these dogs into the state
of happiness that they deserve.

So thank you for inviting.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening.

If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget
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And if you know a pawsome human
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Email me at Anke.

That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.