Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Mark.

I always love starting
out on a bit of a giggle.

I'm really excited to have you here.

So, you know, let people know
where in this lovely world you're

based and good old question,
what's your business with dogs?

Mark: Okay, well, I mean,
perhaps we should have

recorded the first bit of that.

That was quite fun.

Um, but maybe not to do it.

It wasn't to do with dogs, so it's okay.

Uh, I'm Mark Bridger Pescott.

I'm based in the UK in West Sussex.

My company is called Bone Canis,
which is Latin for good dog.

And I've been running that for, for quite
a long years, quite a few years now.

And I have a team of exceptionally
good people that work with me.

Uh, so I have, uh, Lucy Patterson, who's
a canine behaviorist and a trainer.

I have, uh, Holly Dormer, who's
a trainer and also a search and

rescue person with her dog, Ivy.

And I have Kate Roxburgh, who
is a canine behaviorist and a

canine physiotherapist as well.

We've got a little team of people,
um, we cover most of Sussex, most of

Surrey, so quite a big area, but I've,
personally, I've helped people all

over the world with this wonderful
thing called Zoom, which is great.

So I've actually helped
people in Australia, Germany,

Austria, those kind of places.

It's quite nice to be able to
have this Zoom thing nowadays.

Um, although I do prefer to, if I can,
to go to where the dog is, because

at that point I get a cuddle with the
dog, which is always a good thing.

That's my only reason for going
there, to have a cuddle with the dog.

Um, but also we, we kind of
help with behavioral issues

mainly, but we also run classes.

We do three types of classes.

Now we do a first steps puppy class, which
is, um, Specifically for those very, very

first few weeks that are so important.

So we'll have different experiences
for the dogs, different, um,

substrates, things to see, different
socialization aspects of it.

We then do a follow on puppy plus
class, which is for your general, this

is what your pup's going to do to you.

And then we have a next steps,
which is just general training

from six months onwards for any
dog from six months onwards.

But at that point, we've got.

We do recall sessions, we do scent work,
we do, um, trip training, we do, uh,

training walks, which are very popular.

Do those good, quite a few of those.

But our fundamental aim really is to help
people to, to understand dogs better.

So they don't get into that aspect
of, oh my goodness, my dog is

doing XYZ because it hates me.

Um, which of course is not the thing.

We all like to think it.

And we ought to sit there and think
he's doing that on purpose now.

He really is, but of course they're not.

So we do offer quite a few services
spread across the south of England.

Anke: I love that.

I love that you're going
there for the cuddle.

Like, yeah, can totally relate to that.

So what would you say is the, if
there is such a thing, like a most

common issue you find or most common
misunderstanding, like what's something

you find if people just understood that?

Yeah.

Mark: Well, I think the, the main
thing really is just body language.

Mm.

You know, we, we bring these
wonderful creatures into our homes.

They have no choice of
which home they go to.

They just get taken.

So they have no control over anything
at the moment, and we expect them

to understand us instantly, and yet
we don't spend the time to look.

The little nuances of body language, the
little signals that a dog's not happy.

Yeah, it's one of those little things
that you, you go and see a client,

and they go, oh look, so and so
does this, and you're sitting there

going, he doesn't like that, stop it.

So it's, it's a, it's a thing for me
where if people took the time, and

there's plenty of things out there
you can look online to tell you.

Generically, this is what your dog's
possibly thinking if they display

this particular stance or, you know,
the whites of the eyes, the yawn, the

lick of the lips, the stance, the,
the tense, all that kind of stuff.

If your dog's displaying that, take
a step back, have a little look.

If they just did that, a lot of problems
would go away very, very quickly.

Anke: I bet.

Do you find

the information people can find on body
language is Let's say it congruent.

And the reason I give you a bit of
context for the question to make sense.

One of the reasons I actually got
so obsessed with even immersing

myself in that whole topic leading
to Soul Touched by Docs eventually,

uh, was that when I first You know,
they're all from the street, right?

So there wasn't like, oh, I'm going to
get a dog and now I'm going to plan it.

It was like, oh, I have a dog.

What are we going to do now, right?

So it was more like this.

And I found a lot of the information
conflicting, you know, where

there was one saying this, the
next thing says the opposite.

Neither of the two options
really make sense to me.

So.

What's this like specifically
around body language?

Are the experts in agreement or are there
different camps that, and what would you

recommend where somebody would go if I
say, well, yeah, that makes sense to me.

I want to go, I want to
start learning about that.

Mark: I think, um, I think generally most
Behaviorist trainers would say the same

thing about body language in general.

You also get some that just like to be,
no, that's not right because I said so.

Um, but of course the majority kind of
go, well, yes, if, if the dog is licking

their lips and it's out of context, i.

e.

there's no food around, well then
there's probably a sign of stress.

I think most people will agree
on that, but you are quite right.

Trying to find a.

Good, qualified, ethical trainer or
behaviorist is a bit of a minefield

because even some of the ones that
call themselves ethical turn out

to not be ethical and you kind
of go, well, actually, you know,

you're being a bit fraudulent there.

So I think online there's,
there's lots of places you can

go and get good information.

So I'm, I'm the vice chair
of an organization called

the Association of Into Dogs.

Uh, and that's a collection of,
um, ethical behaviorists and

trainers all around the world.

Well, the globe basically that,
um, promotes the, the welfare

and both mentally and physically
of the dogs that we look after.

So organizations like that are generally
the best places to go to find either

someone local to you that can come and
help or for directions on, okay, I'm

looking at this behavior in my dog.

What do I do?

Oh, that's great.

With, um, with the IntuDogs Association
at the moment, we've actually got

what's called an, uh, an intro group.

Um, and all that is, it's, we kind
of figured that there's so much

information out there and not everyone
can afford a behaviorist or a trainer.

And that's no, no one's fault
apart from the government.

So that's fine.

Um, Oh, another podcast.

Let's get political.

Um, That's good.

That's good.

That's good.

That's good.

So we've done this thing where it's
generally 30 a year to join this

group, and you can ask behaviourists
anything you want to ask, so

you can get good information.

And for the month of February,
because it's Valentine's, it's 14.

So great deal.

So if people are going to have a look at
that, it's a great place to go because

you have access to basically all of our
behaviourists, all of our trainers, and

if you've got questions to ask, well
then we're there for 30 a year, I think

there's a Fantastically good value.

Okay, you don't get the home visit,
however, if we can help you get a

little bit further forward so you
can live in harmony, well, brilliant,

and it's well worth the money.

Anke: Awesome, and we're definitely
going to pop that link in the

show notes for sure, for sure.

Is there a particular kind of
problem or behavior problem that

you find happens more often, or is
that also changing over the years?

Like, what's the thing
that you see most often?

Mark: It's definitely changing now.

I think over the last few years for
me, I would say the last probably

five years or so, something like
that would have to be anxiety.

Anke: I'm

Mark: seeing more and more
anxious dogs, nervous dogs,

ones that aren't very confident.

They don't know anything, you
know, it's, and that can be

for a whole number of reasons.

It could be genetics, you know,
my dog is, um, it's from a sort of

bad lineage, if you like, you know,
puppy farms, that kind of stuff.

Or someone's gone out and got a
working breed of dog and hasn't

worked the dog's brain, so the
dog's just a little bit of feral.

Or the dog's a rescuer, it's
come from a bad background.

More and more often nowadays, I'll
go and see a dog that Somebody might

say to me, Oh, my dog barks too much,
or they, they, um, they rush at the

door and you go there and within the
first few seconds, you know, that

dog's nervous and they're anxious.

And you kind of go, well,
that's actually a problem.

Your dog is really kind of unsure about
who they are, where they are, what

they're supposed to be doing in this
particular, uh, particular family unit.

And more often than not, once we get
down to start working the dog's brains

and giving them a bit more confidence.

You see this lovely dog come out.

I saw one the other day.

I saw the first about six weeks ago.

Cracking little rescue dog.

God knows what's in this dog.

It's just a whole ton of stuff rammed in.

Um, and I went there and
he wouldn't come near me.

He was so nervous.

He was, he kept staring at different
places in the house as his way of

kind of blocking everything out.

Um, very, very vocal, very, very unsure.

And I went back last week, um,
six weeks later, And he rushed

at me when I first went in, but
now he's taking treats from me.

And he ended up sitting on the
settee next to me having a stroke.

And it was just, I saw the real dog.

And I saw this little man sort of come
out and go, actually, you know, maybe

you're not so scary after all, and
you do have some tasty food on you.

Maybe you're okay.

And it's just so nice.

The sad thing is, when you, from a
client's point of view, when you're living

with that 24 7, you can't see the changes.

It's It's not apparent to you,
but I go back and go, Wow, that

is such a great achievement.

Look at the progress.

They go, Really?

He's still barking.

And they've just not seen it.

Anke: Yeah.

Mark: He barks at dogs on the telly.

So we put a YouTube thing up of dogs.

Within five minutes, he's ignoring that.

Can't be bothered and it's just relaxing.

It's so, these are the bits for me
that I, that really keep me going.

You see that change and
you go, yeah, that's it.

So

Anke: what did they do in those six

Mark: weeks?

It's working the dog's
brain, giving him what to do.

So from it's like, um, he would
bark, he would bark at the door.

So if we practice on the door and he
barks and we say thank you and give him

a little treat, very very soon he stops
barking at the door for long periods.

We never want to stop a dog
barking completely because

that's their job, you know.

I mean if somebody comes to my door while
we're doing this you're going to hear what

my two do and it's chaos and I like that.

Um, but if we teach the dog that actually
yes thank you for that, thank you for

letting me know there's someone there.

But now I've got it.

It's fine.

And it gives the dog a
little bit of confidence.

It helps them out.

Work in their brains with doing
things like contra freeloading,

so feeding dogs in different ways
that doesn't involve the dog bowl.

Yeah.

Let them work out how
to get some food out.

Little brain games like teaching
them the English language.

You know, teaching them how to read.

It's things like that, that's
such fun, fun things to do.

Wait, little brain games
like, did you make this

Anke: like, what?

Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, it's fun.

The thing is, most people are
already doing it without knowing it.

You know, we've all said to
our dogs, go get your ball.

And they go and get their ball.

They know what a ball is.

Yeah.

Go to your, go to your bed.

I know what a bed is.

So if you're out walking and you
said, you know, there's a tree.

There's a park bench.

There's a signpost.

There's a lamppost.

Your dog will learn what these words are.

You must have heard of
Chaser the Border Collie.

Anke: Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

I've had, I've had, um, on the show.

Yep.

I've had Pilly on the show.

Mark: Yep.

Yeah, well, we, we interviewed
her as well, um, on the Interdogs

thing a little while ago.

Lovely, lovely lady, but it just
goes to show her dad, I mean, wow!

1, 200 words this time.

Incredible.

Amazing.

And of course, when we then, we go
and see clients and they say, well, My

dog won't do that, he's a bit thick.

And you go, this is what dogs can do.

This is kind of like your,
your upper benchmark, you know.

Um, but I personally like
getting dogs to read.

And I do that with families that have
perhaps young kids as well in the house,

because it's such a fun thing to do.

So how do I, how would that work?

Well, the dog needs to know a
few cues that elicit an action.

So let's just say the dog
already knows very well, sit

down, paw, for argument's sake.

Well, all you would do at that point is
on bits of A5 card, you write those words

in nice thick letters, you show the dog
the word sit, you say sit, they sit, you

give them a treat, and you repeat, repeat,
repeat until you can just show the card.

Now, At this point, they're
doing it for two reasons.

One, they have recognized the
word, but secondly, it's like

a hand signal with the card.

Then go to the word down, then
the word pull, and then start

building your vocabulary.

I've got loads of clients that
are doing it, and A, it's so much

fun, because you cannot help but
laugh when your dog starts to read.

It's, it blows you away.

I know, it's just like, it's mind blowing,
like And then of course, then, when,

when people come around your house Oh!

It's like the best party trick ever.

If people go, you know, and with the
kids I like to do it because I get them

to kind of do it over a school holiday.

Because when you go back to school,
your teacher's going to go, what

did you do over the holidays?

And you're going to say, I
taught my dog how to read.

They're all going to laugh at you.

And then you bring your phone
out and go, there you go.

And you, you've got all the kudos
in the world because you've trained

your neck out to read something.

It's brilliant.

It's just, it's something a
little bit different that isn't

your boring sit down stay stuff.

People kind of get a little bored of
and a little bit like, I don't want to

do that because, you know, whatever.

You're still doing the sit down
stay and the rest of it, but

you're doing it by teaching them
what the words actually look like.

That's amazing.

That's so much fun.

I like to say, just talking
to Billie, well, I mean, it's

just, she knows her stuff too.

Anke: That's incredible.

Actually, it reminds me of an
Instagram account that I followed.

Um, I haven't seen them for a
while, but anyway, but basically

they had a dog and The guy says,
Oh yeah, no, the dog actually pays

the rent, which was quite funny.

And all they did was they did monetize the
Instagram account, but all the day, like

all the posts were always the same, right?

They basically had one of those.

Keyboard thingies on the floor, right?

Where the dog would just kind of go
and, and, and basically, hey, I want

food and I want this and I'm thirsty
and shut up, whatever it was, right?

And they seem to really quite enjoy it.

And I was always wonder, wondering
how conscious or arbitrary that is.

Are they just kind of hitting
somewhere or do they really know

that, hey, I'm thirsty, this
is the button I need to press?

Mark: They really know, because at
that point with the, with the words

that are on there, you've taught the
dogs what the word actually means.

And of course then you You go and do it.

I mean, when you think about what
these dogs could actually do, you

know, sniff out leukemia, sniff out
cancer, COVID, drugs, money, all the

rest of the stuff, you know, when
we're asking them to sit or lay down,

it's just like, it's such a low level.

It is kind of asking adults to cover a
book, you know, it's, it's that simplistic

thing that you, you can go and do.

So, you know, I, I used to be this guy
that would go out and see people and

I'd kind of get a little bit annoyed
because I know what dogs are capable of.

And I was kind of going, well, look,
you can do this, you can do this.

And I was so enthusiastic.

And then you kind of go, actually, what
people want is the dog not to attack

anything or to come back when called,
or, you know, don't eat my slippers.

It's, it's that, and
they're happy with that.

But that's where I'm trying to get them
to do stuff that maybe is a little bit

different to what they've been doing.

So if I'm going to say, if you take
your dog for a walk, don't just go for

a walk, do some things on the walk.

And that could be anything.

You could hide some food somewhere,
throw a ball into long grass, you

know, make them work a little bit.

Because it's going to be fun.

If it's fun, I hear your dog comes
back quicker, because you're fun.

But secondly, they're going
to become exceptionally tired,

which has got to be a good thing.

Anke: Yeah, no, that makes that
makes that makes sense, right?

It's, it's, um,

it's kind of almost like a way to
build up their confidence, right?

If they kind of have these, you
know, Moments of success and

moments of achieving things.

I mean, it kind of makes sense to me
that the dog would become more, well,

I don't know whether assertive, but
like less nervous, less skittish.

Mark: Yeah, I think
it's a confidence thing.

So once, it's no different to us really.

If you, if you know something well,
then you're confident about it and

you can talk about it all day long.

But if you then put, if you put me there
into a situation where I'm talking about

something I know nothing about, then
you're going to get lots of stammering

and lots of, uh, oof, yeah, um, oof.

And it's the same thing, but
once you've done that thing for

a while, you get better at it.

I've always been one of these people
that I like to say yes to things and

then work out how to do it later.

It either goes horribly wrong
or actually you get a new skill

set and I quite like that.

Um, so it's quite nice to immerse yourself
sometimes in something that is out of your

comfort zone, but dogs are no different.

Once they know how to do something,
Generally, if it's been fun and it's been

exciting and it's been rewarding, they're
going to do it over and over again.

Because as we all know, in
the dog world, dogs only do

behaviors that work for the dog.

So if they get a treat for doing
something, they're going to do it

again, much like we would, you know.

Anke: Can I ask you something?

Because, you know, this idea,
like, you know, we're like Mrs.

Guard Dog here.

So when there's somebody at
the gate, she'll bark, right?

And, um, so I've You know, Dundee,
hey, I go out, I've got it, you know,

and she's not barking excessively, you
know, but then I will get, yeah, but

you're giving her a treat for barking.

Mark: Am I doing

Anke: something wrong?

Is there a point to that?

Mark: What's your take?

So my take is that your dog barking at the
gate is doing a fantastically good job.

Whether they're barking or they stop
barking, they still do a really good job.

That benefits some kind of
reward, whether it's food based,

toy based, verbal, affection,
whatever, it doesn't really matter.

The way I like to do it is, uh,
someone comes to the door, The

dogs bark, I say thank you, they
stop barking, I give them a treat.

I'm giving them a treat now
for them stopping barking.

Anke: Yeah.

Mark: Because if we think about
dogs only do what works for the

dog, on the flip side you only ever
reward the last thing a dog does.

And that can be really tricky.

So your dog's barking at the gate.

Brilliant.

Thanks, guys.

Well done.

If they stop, couple of treats.

You've done a brilliant job.

Thanks for letting me know.

It also tells people that maybe they
shouldn't break into your house.

Well, that's the thing.

Like, I don't really want
them to stop entirely.

I'm

Anke: so

Mark: sure not.

Exactly.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it's just rewarding that behavior.

So from a dog that jumps up,
Some people don't like that.

I understand why.

So, but if you They're jumping
up to get your attention.

And of course, if you say get
down, they've got your attention.

It's worked.

I'll do it again and again and again.

If you turn slightly and the second
their paws hit the floor, yes, good dog.

Well done.

They're going to stay on the
floor more often because that's

where the reward comes from.

So it's very tricky because it can
be, especially that in public, if

your dog barks at somebody, your
brain will go, I need to punish.

The person that's been barked at
goes, you better tell your dog off.

But I'm there going, thank you
mate, it's okay, have a treat.

Now of course everyone's thinking I'm
rewarding the barking, but I'm really not.

And it's all too easy to
then go, oi, pack it in.

If I, if I tell my dog off for barking
at somebody, What's guaranteed is

they're going to bark at that person
more and more and more because each

time I see that person, God, I hate that
person because he keeps telling me off.

Yeah.

And it's also like,

Anke: Hey, I've been telling you
like, and you're not listening.

I need to tell you more.

Mark: It's the same thing with,
uh, you know, barking in the house,

you know, the dog barks, we shout,
the dog barks more, we shout more.

It's, it's just a competition,
you know, it's ridiculous, really.

So I kind of.

It's very tricky sometimes to
explain to people that we only

reward the last thing a dog does.

And if you do that, and they get rewarded
for all the good stuff that they do,

they're going to do that stuff more often.

That's a very generic way of saying
it, because there are other issues

that we need to look at that will take
longer and not quite as simplistic.

But, in general, that's a much
easier way of thinking about things.

Anke: Yeah, makes so much sense.

So where can people go out and
go and find out more about you?

Because obviously they don't have
to necessarily live next door.

That will give you a cuddle.

Where can people

Mark: get in touch?

My wife will get really upset.

So, um, so, uh, where, uh, my Online
presence though, the website is www.

bonecanis.

com, you can find me on there, and
obviously Bonecanis on Facebook as well.

I am on X and Instagram, but I
have no idea how to use them,

so it's very quiet on those two.

I'm too old, I can just about
handle Facebook, and that does me.

Um, but like I say, we've got this
wonderful technology now of Zoom, doesn't

matter where you live, you know, we, we
can kind of help you wherever you are.

But I'm also very good at, um, if I don't
think it's right to be an online session,

I will try and find someone closer to you
that is ethical that can probably help.

But have a look on, on my website, you'll
see, you'll see some lovely dogs on

there, you'll see all my, my colleagues
on there as well, they're all lovely too.

Um, yeah, so.

www.

bodychemist.

com.

Anke: Awesome.

Well, thank you so much.

This was exceptional amount of fun.

So thank you for coming and very, um,
helpful and educational and entertaining.

Oh, it's been

Mark: lovely.

Thank you for having me.

Is this the kind of interview that I
actually like doing, where it's just like

having a cup of tea and having a chat
rather than question, question, question.

This is much, much nicer, much more fun,
and I think much more engaging as well.

So thank you for having me along.

Well, thank you.

Thanks so much for listening.

If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget
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And if you know a pawsome human
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Email me at Anke.

That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.