Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Matt.

I'm very excited to have you here
today because we've been trying for

a while to find, uh, find and meet
in the same place at the same time.

So today's the day.

Welcome, Matt.

Matt: Thank you.

I'm really glad to be here and thanks for
your patience and, uh, and just thanks for

your message that's out there too and what
you're making available to people who, um,

really want to feel enriched and fortified
in their relationship with their dogs.

Anke: Oh, I love, I
love how you said that.

I might steal that.

So, let's start out, let people know
where in this lovely world are you based,

and what's your business with dogs?

Matt: I'm currently
based in Austin, Texas.

We moved here about three
and a half years ago.

We were, prior to that, we were
based in Los Angeles, California.

And I am by profession, I'm a certified
professional dog trainer, a family dog

mediator, a licensed trainer in that area.

And I am on a personal mission
to help support transformation

in humans with their dogs.

And what that means is, um, really lending
a lot of support and consideration towards

the human involved in the human dog
relationship, uh, that will always benefit

dogs if humans feel more supported.

And there's a lot of parallels, as, as
you know, and probably maybe a number of

your listeners would know too, there's a
lot of parallels in the motto that, that's

what's good for the dog is good for me.

And I would even go so far
as to say what's good for a

dog is good for the world.

So that's my general scope of things.

Um, I started training about 16
years ago, and I should put training

in quotes, because when I started,
I was actually afraid of dogs.

I'd been bit by a dog on Halloween when
I was a kid, about 7 years old, and I, I

was afraid of dogs well into adulthood,
and I didn't know how to talk about it

or who to talk to, and I was ashamed,
and I saw an episode of, uh, of a TV

show that was very popular at the time.

And in that episode, that dog
trainer helped a grown man

get over his fear of dogs.

And I thought that was possible.

I didn't know that that was ever
going to be possible for me.

And, um, and at that time, while I
was watching that episode, I was,

I was living with somebody, my
girlfriend at the time and her dog.

Um, who is a nine month old terrier,
which just meant he had a lot of feelings

about things and a lot of opinions.

and a lot of needs, but he
was, um, he was understandably

incorrectly judged as aggressive.

So here I am afraid of dogs, and I'm
living with this mighty, mighty terrier,

and this terrier is probably thinking,
what have I done to deserve this guy?

Um, but I was, uh, I'm
open about this too.

So I want to include this in, in this,
um, little intro here that, um, I was

at the same time, I was also recovering
from a pretty bad problem with alcohol.

And, uh, and so I was getting
sober and I don't recommend

detoxing and moving in with a dog.

That's a nine month old terrier
when you're afraid of dogs.

I don't recommend that for anybody.

Uh, but that's how I started.

And part of what this dog who he would
become my dog, my girlfriend and I, we

split up, but the dog ended up With me,
um, part of what Kingston gave me was

access to the world again, because I was
terrified, I didn't know how to behave

in the world, much like a dog might feel,
I didn't, I didn't feel like I belonged,

and, um, I needed to get him out, A,
to go to the bathroom, B, to go explore

the world, and so helping him literally
got me back out in the world again.

And that was the beginning of it.

And then, um, I've had a lot of
opportunities and experience in my

life, and I'm what we would now call as
a crossover trainer, and, and, uh, I'm

so grateful to, to know what I know now
and have the support that I have, and to

be able to share, um, transparently and
openly about where I've come from, why

it seems like it works, what the harm
might be, why it doesn't necessarily work,

and to be honest about the frustrations,
because I think It's really hard on dog

people in general because, um, they think
the trainers have it figured out and they

don't know that, that, um, that we have
struggles, struggles just like theirs.

Uh, and we have, hopefully we have
places we can go and learn and

practice and, and, and evolve.

But I, I just know that if I didn't get
the kind of support that I've gotten,

even though people were justifiably
critical of what I, what I had put out

there, particularly on a television show.

If I hadn't gotten the support, um,
I wouldn't be able to show up for

my dogs the way that I do today.

So that's part of my
personal mission here too.

Anke: Wow, I love that you're sharing
all of that because I think there's a lot

of shame in, you know, even like, like
not even just professionals, but like

people who feel, I know this isn't quite
right, but I don't know what else to do

and nothing else seems to be working.

And I, in my own experience,
I like, my, my whole, for me,

it all started with this guy.

And, you know, and he got
bitten when he was little.

And so he was like stressed and,
and everybody told me, you know,

you have to tell them who's boss.

And, and, you know, and I was in this,
like, it doesn't make sense to me.

This little dog doesn't look like as he
is, he's trying to take over the world.

But like, I didn't have an alternative.

Like, I didn't know else to look.

And everybody.

kind of looked at me as if I'm nuts.

And so it kind of can be quite
lonely when you don't actually have.

It feels like that's why I'm so
passionate about to bring people together.

We said, well, yeah, actually now
we have access to other information

and, and, and better ways.

So how did you, I mean, actually like
one question to start, like at what point

did you know from, okay, I've gotten
my over my own fear and I've gotten.

Sort of really, this relationship has
given me a lot to, oh, actually I want

to help other people with their dogs.

And, um, and then I'm curious
about sort of that, that

transition, but we'll get to that.

Matt: Yeah.

Thank you.

I want to just touch on something you
said I think is really important and

that's the isolation that people feel.

Um, that's, that's, that's an
experience people are having worldwide,

obviously, given the conflict that
we're in, this feeling that we're

not a part of, we're apart from.

Um, and we're, unfortunately, we're no
better off in the dog world, maybe even

more polarizing, I suppose, in many ways.

Um, cause that's really a,
really hard place to be.

Um, um, living with a dog is hard.

It's hard for the dog.

It's hard for the human.

Uh, but living with a dog with behaviors
that lead to isolation, that's, that's

really common and it's really difficult.

And, um, and that's, uh, uh, there's
a lot of despair that comes from that.

So.

So for me, um, I think that, I think,
uh, uh, in your instant, in answer

to your question, there was, I had
this sense, even as people, even as

my clients were saying, I'm seeing
amazing changes in, in my dog.

I had this sense when we were at
the height of our popularity in Los

Angeles with a, with a community
of dogs that were not, they were

kicked out of other daycares.

They weren't welcome in other daycares.

They couldn't pass personality tests.

Um, I had this sense that it
didn't matter how afraid I was,

I needed to be able to help them.

And there was a really important shift
for me when I had a chance to hear Dr.

Ian Dunbar speak and actually
speak with him privately.

And he said, he'd said at
the time, roughly 90 percent

of aggression is fear based.

And I could relate to that so much as
a human that I really, most of what

I have done is because I was afraid.

And I thought maybe if I, if I
can scare you or if I can make

you go away, you know, like there
would, that would bring me relief.

So that was a really healthy
anthropomorphization for me

to consider dogs differently.

And once I begin to see the behavior
from different, different motives

than what I was assigning them, I
didn't take the behavior personally.

And that saved me so much stress
and Um, it really was the cure for

my fear that the thing that I was
afraid of, having been bitten by a

German Shepherd all those years ago,
was based on a misunderstanding.

And the Shepherd was wagging its tail
on Halloween when I was seven years

old and I reached for the bucket.

And the adults, knowing what
they knew and not knowing what

they didn't know, they all said a
wagging tail means the dog is happy.

And we know professionally that
that's not the reality of it.

So getting that gift of objectivity and
context and consideration for the behavior

really changed my, changed my life.

But as you know, there's, you know,
when one is considered the, the

expert and I was not the expert, I
still don't consider myself an expert

though I'm 16 years in the field here.

But when we go to the
expert for the solution, um,

oftentimes we just need relief.

I'm kind of shocked when my clients
will say, you know, that one phone

call we had really made a difference.

And I'm, I'm grateful that I have learned
how to offer support in a 20 minute

phone call or in a single session.

But I, and I know there's so much more.

There's so much more
opportunity and growth, etc.

So when I'm talking to people at that
height of our popularity, and they're

saying, you know, I'm following some
of your recommendations, and we're

seeing some amazing changes, and I
know that there's something else,

like, but I can't stop this 15, 15
person staff facility, that's 24

7, like, I can't stop the machine.

What am I going to do about this?

And, um, the timing was quite
interesting because at that point

we had the first season of this
television show that I did that was out.

And when I watched the rough draft
of the television show before it

went public, I looked at it and I
thought, I don't like what I'm doing

and I don't like how I'm doing it.

And there's things I wish I had
done differently or things that

I wish I hadn't done at all.

And this is going to be a problem.

And so.

Before the, the understandable
professional backlash to that

show, before that even happened,
I reached out to somebody asking

for help because I needed new help.

And, uh, and that person, um, I've talked
about this quite a bit, that person was

Michael Shikashio, and Michael Shikashio,
bless him, the first thing he said is,

your name seems kind of familiar, and,
uh, and, um, it must be hard for you

to work with dogs and learn new things
with all the controversy around you.

What an unbelievably

generous, uh, person.

offering he made, you know, and
so I started picking his brain.

And then when we got a chance to film a
second season, I said, I I'm going to,

I'm going to show the evolution of a
dog trainer myself, and I'm committed to

becoming a certified, the only certified
professional dog trainer on television.

At that time, maybe, maybe not
anymore, but I said, I'm going

to use this as an opportunity.

And the network said, that's great, man.

We'll let you do that.

But really like, don't, don't
focus on education too much.

Cause it's not going to sell.

That's what I was told.

Anke: Yeah.

That's

Matt: so,

Anke: Oh, that

Matt: journey has been a weird one.

Um, but that's like, that's a,
that's a segment of it when we're

talking about, you know, how do
I grow and where the fear is?

That's, that's been a, That's a
really meaty part of it because I

I was being publicly reinforced.

Yeah.

I knew better and I knew I needed
help and I didn't know how to get the

help and I couldn't stop the machine.

That's

Anke: such a difficult one because on the
one hand you've got the exposure to reach

a lot of people and on the other hand you
don't Control over doing it with your way.

It's like, ooh, that's like, that's almost
worse than not reaching people, right.

Than sort of reaching them with something
you're not really standing behind anymore.

Yeah.

So what's the biggest change
in how you work with people?

Or like, what's the outcome?

Like what's the.

What, for you, what feels like, and
then sometimes, you know, on the outside

people might just be happy now and they
were happy, like, you know, like it may

not be that visible on the outside, but
what's the biggest difference for you?

Matt: Well, I would say for me, um, I,
I have Um, I have just learned how to

simplify everything, which is interesting
because I know, I know so much more

than I ever did, and I have a better
contextual understanding of what I've

done, uh, than I ever have, and really
it's quite simple, like, I'm here to help

take the pressure off you and your dog.

That's it.

And, and what does that look like?

Well, let's talk about it.

Where do you really have
the greatest struggles?

Well, on the leash with walking.

Okay.

How's your dog sleeping?

He doesn't sleep very well.

You know, he's easily disturbed and okay.

So he might have a hard time on the
walks if he's not sleeping well.

Oh, okay.

You know what I mean?

And then we start to build a basis that's
a foundation that or build or, or fortify

a foundation that's wellness based.

What does your dog like
to do and love to do?

What's its genetic predisposition?

Are you getting any of those needs met?

Uh, not really.

Well, my dog loves fetch,
but he's just hyper obsessed.

Uh, that's so Hyper focus might not
be great for the nervous system, but

is there a way that we can utilize
that in a way that's going to be

fulfilling for this dog, you know?

I just keep coming back to how
do I take the pressure off?

So I feel much more nimble and skilled.

And I guess the other thing, even
though we're in a results driven

business and industry and arguably
world, I'm really comfortable

going in and saying, I don't know.

I don't know.

We're going to find out and
I'm going to ask your dog.

And that is also a cornerstone.

I'm going to help take pressure
off by way of learning what is

and isn't pressure for your dog.

And then everything else like
we can fill in the blanks with.

You know,

Anke: I love that.

I think that, you know, the
Tiggernet really reminds me of

how similar we actually are.

You know, when I work with people
in my, you know, with clients in my

work, that's people, you know, first
thing is let's take the pressure, zero

pressure, like let's, You know, just
relax into it because we just function

better when, you know, and dogs are
the same, animal, anybody is the same.

And, and I love the, the holistic
approach that we don't just fix

the symptoms because if we go to
the root of it, then most of the

time there's nothing left to fix.

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah, that is right.

And that's been, that's been amazing.

Like anecdotally, I can say in the last
few years that I've committed to working

that way that easily 60 to 70 percent
of the quote behavior problems go away.

And I didn't do any training.

Yeah.

I I'm not even comfortable
really calling myself a trainer.

And I don't think I even think
like at best, I'm a learner.

Like I come in, I'm the learner.

I'm the primary learner.

And the dog is the teacher, and then
the other people are observers, and then

I can, I can, I can, the dog's people,
they're learning also, but, but really

like, let's create a space where we
have the freedom to observe, and then

we'll build up our learning experience.

Anke: So you're the translator, basically.

You understand dog, and then you explain,
you know, I think you, your job is to

help the dog's people to actually be
able to understand what the dog's saying.

Matt: Yes.

I would actually take it a step further
because I feel very strongly that I am

not the Zen dog, but I'm its curator.

And, and the, the ethos of the Zen
dog is that we have the freedom to

explore and express who we are as dogs.

And that the, the logo of the Zen dog,
which is not the logo behind me, that's

actually a project that I'm working
on in the same spirit, but the logo of

the Zen dog has an open ended circle.

Because there's always more information
to get and, spoiler alert, if anybody

looks at the Zen Dog logo, you
will find in the middle of the logo

is the image of a sitting Buddha.

That's in the pad of the Zen Dog logo
so that one can practice being at peace

with growth and life and the unknown.

Being comfortable with being uncomfortable
is a skill set that I had to learn and it

has changed my life and my work with dogs.

Anke: Yeah.

And I would, I would bet my life
that it would actually apply

to all areas of life as well.

Matt: I

Anke: love that.

So if somebody wants to find out
more and get in touch with you,

what's the best place to go?

Matt: Well, you can find us at thezendog.

com.

And, uh, one of the things that I'm
really, I really appreciate about our, our

business model is, uh, that I'm accessible
and you can book a 20 minute free courtesy

Zoom or a phone consult at any time.

Happy to talk to anybody, anywhere,
anytime, if I can be helpful.

And then I'm, um, I'm generally pretty
active on Instagram and, uh, and

Facebook, but I've been quiet lately
in part, because I'm working on a

project called Dog Pupil Evolution,
which is a global conference, which

is sent to launch in late 2025.

And we will have, uh,
over 20 virtual speakers.

And, um, 10 live speakers.

The live presentation is going to be
held outside of Stockholm, Sweden.

And we have a lot of new voices,
amazing voices, uh, really well

known voices in the dog care field.

And we are gathering for one
single purpose, and that's

to support human change.

Because if we want to help more dogs, we
have to learn how to help more humans.

And, uh, That, that will be available.

Tickets will be available soon.

Promotions will go out soon
and, um, and that's my goal.

My goal is to help the people that,
that, that love their dog but want

a new, know new ways to love them.

Anke: I love that.

Matt: Do that without shame,
without judgment, and in a

Anke: community.

I love that.

So when that promo goes
out, please let me know.

I would love to share, help share
the message and spread the word.

So thank you so much.

And, um, this was an absolute
delight, and I hope it won't be

the last time that we've met.

Matt: It won't.

Thank you so much.

Thanks so much for listening.

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And if you know a pawsome human
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I'd love an introduction.

Email me at Anke.

That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.