Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Speaker: Hello and welcome, Maja.

I'm super excited to have
the two of you there.

Speaker 2: Hi, thank you very
much for having us, yeah.

How are you?

Speaker: Good.

So, you know, let people know where in
this lovely world you're based and, you

know, what's your business with dogs and

Speaker 2: cats?

Yeah, that's true, it's
more pets actually.

Um, so I'm based in, um, England in
Gloucestershire, which is on the south.

Wales, um, border.

And, um, so I'm based in Gloucestershire,
but my business and my organization is

a, uh, international organization, so
our work costs are The world really,

but that's where I'm kind of based.

Um, and I run Safeguarding Animal and
Human Survivors of Sexual and Domestic

Abuse, which is known as SASTA.

Um, and we are a, um, training,
kind of, guest lecturing space.

It's an education organization, really,
looking to raise awareness on the use of

companion animals, but especially dogs, as
a tactic of coercive controlling behavior

within domestic abuse relationships.

And then I also do work, um, as the
organization on animal sexual abuse

and, um, um, spiritual and ritual abuse,
the use of animals in, um, kind of

witchcraft, um, um, across the world.

Yeah, this is, um, it's an
interesting, um, organization.

Speaker: Jesus,

Speaker 2: it's

Speaker: a, it's a heavy topic, right?

How did you get into that?

Like, what made you turn that
into your, into your business?

Speaker 2: My business, so, um, My
background is in human survivor support.

So I left, I left university, um, in
2015 and I did a, um, an undergraduate

degree in history with a focus on,
um, women's oppression and like the

equal rights movements throughout time.

And then I did my Master's in Human Rights
Law, and then throughout the four years

of university, I was volunteering for
a local, um, kind of, um, abuse charity

on, as a helpline advocate, um, and I
also worked for Citizens Advice Bureau,

which is a, Um, Charity in the UK, which
helps give advice on lots of different

topics to those in need, basically.

Um, and then I left university,
and my first job was working

in the, um, coroner's office.

So, actually, I was, um, investigating
suspicious and unnatural deaths.

Um, and as part of that work, um, we
would look at if someone had, um, you

know, been, been killed by a partner, ex
partner, or family member, you would do

what's called a domestic homicide review.

Thank you.

So you would look at where were the
missed opportunities to intervene by

agencies, and what can we learn from this
so that we prevent it happening again.

And then I left that and I worked
directly with survivors of sexual

and domestic abuse for several
years, so I'm qualified independent.

sexual violence advocate, um, and
so I would work with those who are

either currently or historically,
um, being subjected to some form

of trauma from abuse, um, and I do
risk assessing and safety planning.

Um, and then about five years ago, I, um,
I became a trainer, a VALDA SV trainer,

which stands for Violence Against Women,
Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence.

Um, and my job was to train kind of
statutory organizations like policing

and social services and, um, family
courts and criminal courts, um, as

well as non statutory agencies like,
um, voluntary charities, voluntary

sector, businesses, government, um,
on, um, The Recognizing and Responding

Effectively to Abuse in a Trauma
Informed, Needs Led, Strength Based Way.

Um, and at about the same time that
I started there in 2019, I got my,

my dog, Podrick, um, and he was
the first dog I had as an adult.

So I had a family dog growing up, um,
and I was just enthralled with him.

I thought he was the most amazing,
interesting, fascinating being ever.

And I just, couldn't get out, you
know, I'd watch him and I wanted

to know why is he doing that?

What, what's he thinking?

Like, how can I make sure that
I'm meeting his needs and, and

all of those kinds of things?

And this is before I even entered kind of
the dog world, but based on my background

working with survivors of abuse and young
adults, You can use so much of that when

you interact with dogs, whether they are
traumatized or not, you can use so much.

So, um, I'm someone who, once I'm
interested in something, I kind of really

go down the rabbit hole and I don't, I
don't feel like it's enough to just read.

I'm like, I need to, you
know, do this course.

I need to meet these people.

I need to do this.

So I then started doing kind of courses
in dog body language originally,

and then that, um, and kind of more
training based things, but I moved

very quickly away from that as an
ethos of mine because of my background.

I was much more interested in kind of
the psychology and the behavior side, um,

of, of animals and in particular dogs.

Um, And so from that I met, um,
some really great people in kind

of the behavioural world like
Andrew Hale and Trisha Hollingshead

and Danny Beck and all of that.

Um, and I felt like I had
something to kind of offer that

sector because of my background.

Um, I felt like because the kind of
dog behavior in training world is

unregulated and lots of you are working
as individuals businesses so you don't

have a HR department you don't have
like the structure that lots of other

um like professions do and so my concern
was I was talking to like you know my

friends who were behaviorists and they
didn't really know what to do like

if they suspected abuse in the animal
or the human client and I felt like

there was a real gap there in terms of
Understanding our responsibility under

the legislation, you know, whichever
country you're in, there will be

legislation around information sharing
in order to protect people and animals.

Um, but also like confidence,
you know, that confidence levels.

And then also there's an element of
risk that I was really worried that,

you know, At some point, you know, some,
something's going to happen to either

a behaviorist, a trainer, or a client
because, um, you often also work in

kind of isolated areas where there's
not much mobile signal and, and so I

was concerned about the personal safety
of my, of behaviorists and trainers, as

well as the human and animal clients.

So, so I set up SASTA.

It's only, we've only been going
since about January this year.

I did a couple of years
before I started doing BITS.

So I did some work with the Association
of Pet Behaviour Counsellors.

I did some work with Andy.

in dog centered care, and I started
having kind of the conversations.

A catalyst was I was invited to speak
at Houses of Parliament in October 2023

on a panel specifically on the use of,
um, looking at the use of companion

animals as a tactic of coercive control.

And, um, from there, you know,
that I was getting contacted, um,

quite a lot to, to, um, kind of
speak with people and collaborate.

So I thought I needed something to, um,
differentiate me from my employed job.

Cause obviously I was employed and
I run this, um, in my spare time.

So, um, it was really important that there
was something that people could go to.

Um, and that's where Safeguarding Animal
and Human Survivors of Sexual and Domestic

Abuse kind of was born, I suppose.

Wow.

Speaker: That's, I mean, what is something
that you find people, what do you think,

what do you wish people knew about this?

Because, I mean, I can totally see, like,
you know, we, I mean, just listen to

the news, and quite often when there's
situations where people It usually feels

like, okay, once they're separated and
you can't, you know, then they go for what

they most love and that's the children.

And that's the animals, right?

So I can totally see it's like, oh boy.

Like I don't even wanna think about it.

You know?

So what are signals?

Somebody could, what?

Watch out for, to, you know, to help
you pick up if maybe your neighbor or

something's, because you know, it's, it.

You might have it right in front of
you in your area and wouldn't know.

How can you tell or is there
something that that gives it away?

Speaker 2: So often it's looking at
like, um, similar to how we would

look at like dog behavior, has
there been a change in behavior?

So if you knew that person and then
they've um, got into a relationship, has

their behavior significantly changed?

Are they more withdrawn?

Are they isolated?

Are they, um, are they not able
to come anymore because they're

not being allowed to pay?

You know, they don't have
access to their finances, etc.

And they might use language, which is
like, um, So, to say the perpetrator, so

they might say things like, so if we use
a fake name, I'm just trying, I don't want

to offend anyone by using a fake name.

If I use a fake name like, I
use my grandad because I love

him to bits and he won't mind.

So he's called John, so if they said
something like, um, oh John doesn't like

it when I do this, this and this, or, or
they act like worried about what would

happen if they did something that that
person wouldn't agree with or wouldn't

like, um, We have to think way deeper
than any sort of physical sign, because

we're still quite, there's this myth
that domestic abuse is only physical

violence, and there's the broken bone
and the bruised eye, and the reality

is that there, there can be violence,
um, the highest risk indicator though

is coercive control, so that's where
they limit your life, so your ability

to act independently is compromised,
so your ability to work without.

You know, work at all, but if you are
allowed to work, is it really stressful?

Do they contact, monitor you?

Do they contact, always harass you
at work, like by phone or email?

Or do they accuse you of
affairs with your co worker?

You know, those kinds of things.

And then economic abuse as well.

Um, where it comes under that, but also
around, especially for the pets, things

like, are they allowed to go to the vet?

Are they allowed to be
treated for parasites?

Are they allowed to be fed the
food that you want to feed them?

You know, and so there's lots of
like small indicators that add

up, but my biggest, my biggest
thing I want behaviorists to

understand is Or maybe there's two.

One is that it is a you issue, because
the biggest barrier I find is that

people go that's got nothing to do
with me, like, I don't deal with that.

I work with dogs.

I don't have anything to do with that.

The reality is

that domestic abuse is extremely common.

So one in three women in their lifetime,
I personally think it's higher than that,

but that's the statistic that we know, um,
experience domestic abuse, one in six men.

So.

If you have a client and an animal
and there's domestic abuse, you

are working with domestic abuse.

That's the reality of it.

Whether that's current or whether that was
10 years ago and that dog's still affected

um, after, you know, being removed
from the situation, you are working

with it in some way, shape or form.

So first of all, we need to
Get that barrier down that

it does, it does involve me.

I do have a responsibility
to be an active bystander.

But my other big thing is I'm not
expecting people to be experts in this and

we shouldn't expect people to be experts
in this because that's not your role.

So what my, what I'm trying to do
is um, educate people on spotting

the signs and then knowing who
to pass that information to.

And that's all we want is, is, is, is.

Your gut to tell you that something's
not right, you either ask or you,

you pass the information on and then
you've done your bit, because when we

work with domestic abuse, um, in my
sector, we work with multi agencies.

So we work with police, social services,
education, health, um, you know,

anyone and everyone, and everyone
holds a different piece of the puzzle.

Not everyone has all of the picture,
and so you might have a piece of

the puzzle that's really helps build
that picture, helps with that case,

helps with, um, safety planning.

And if we don't know that, then
we can't include that in our risk

assessment, in our, you know, our
ability to save and protect people.

So I think that, that there's
that, um, I want people to feel a

responsibility to, to this subject.

And then I want them to know that it's
okay that not to be the expert and

that this is where you go with it.

Um, so I will mention that
we, I'm just finishing up.

The, there will be a new
qualification for pet professionals.

Um, it's the level two award in
safeguarding for the pet professionals.

It's Ofqual regulated, which means that
it's a, it's a proper qualification.

Um, and that means it's regulated
by an awarding body in the UK.

So it's not just a kind of a course
that I've written and kind of out there.

It's a, it's a, it's a gone through
a rigorous quality internal and

external quality assurance procedure.

And that's going to be run by IPET
network and myself, um, in collaboration.

So it's an international, it will be
available internationally, um, which

is really important as well, because we
want this to be a standardized thing,

similar to how we're trying to get
people to do their canine first aid.

Um, and if you, and our thing is.

In our sector, in my sector, you
have to repeat your safeguarding

training every five years.

Um, so we want to kind of model
that for any professionals.

Um, and so by pet professionals,
we mean, you know, dog trainers

and behaviorists, but we also mean
groomers and dog daycare and dog

walkers and, um, vet receptionists.

And, you know, um, not, This one isn't
specific for vets because they need a

much more medical, a different, different
type of course, um, but it, for that

receptionist, it would be a good one.

So that's coming out within the next
um, month or two, um, and then I'm also

creating a, um, That's the version of it
that's an e learning, but that wouldn't

be a qualification because, again, because
of the strict nature of that, you have

to kind of come to all of the hours and I
need to make sure that people are there.

It's only a day course so it's not a
huge taxing qualification, but it is

important that we meet those requirements.

And then the e learning will be available
to do in your own time kind of thing.

So those are the two kind of main things.

products coming out.

Well,

Speaker: let us know so we
can, you know, distribute it.

And so, so how, how does it typically, or
is there something that gives away that

a dog might have been subjected to abuse
in some form, like of that kind of abuse?

Like I didn't even, I don't know,
like sexual abuse in animals.

Like, I was like, who would do that?

Like, I don't even get this, right?

So, but I mean, if you, because
you were just saying that it's not

just when they're in the situation.

Right, it actually, you know,
impacts them way beyond that.

So, so is there something
that would give it away?

Or, you know?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that's a
really good point because when you speak

to human survivors of Um, you know, abuse.

They often say that the psychological
and emotional abuse is what stays

with them and affects them the most.

You know, they talk about broken bones
heal, bruises heal, but if you've

been told for, you know, months, days,
months, years, that you're worthless

and that no one loves you and no one
cares about you and no one's going

to believe you and if you leave them
then they're going to, you know, hurt

themselves or they're going to hurt you.

That stays with them for like a long
time, and that's where the support

comes, the specialist support comes
in then to help on that journey.

But I think having worked with children
and young adults affected and, and

victims, survivors of domestic abuse, I
feel like animal, animal, animals that

live in that environment are, um, You
know, exposed to that same, um, harm

and therefore the psychological impact
can be quite similar to the children.

So again, it's a lot of kind of a
behavioral, um, behavioral impact.

So do they, are they fearful of
that one person in that family?

So if you're working with a family
and they are fearful of that, normally

the male, um, that could be a sign
that there's abuse happening there.

But not always, because
like with children.

Because we have such strong bonds
with our animals, sometimes they go

into like, um, like a, like, Stockholm
Syndrome type, um, bond, trauma bonding.

So they actually sometimes
are closer to the perpetrator.

That's tricky, isn't it?

So it's a really tricky You can't be a bad

Speaker: person if the
dog loves them, right?

Speaker 2: Yes, which is so incorrect.

And then you might see a lot of
appeasement behaviours, which is really

difficult because some, some animals
are more appeasing naturally as their

personality, like my dog is very appeasy.

So, you know, but I think what I try
and do in my training is say, Don't

act necessarily on just one indicator.

It's really about building that
picture of, of things and the person

might directly tell you that's, you
know, that's the biggest indicator

and then you would need to act.

But it might be that, you know, say oh
they missed a session and when they came

they came next time they were saying
they they were something didn't sit right

about what they were saying about why
they missed it and or they might link

it to oh um my partner kind of really
wanted to spend more time with me because

he or she said that um, you I spend
too much time on the dog, or I spend

too much money on the dog, and, or the
perpetrator will purposefully undermine

behavior plans or modification plans.

So if you're not seeing like, progress,
um, then it might be because the person

is intentionally disrupting that as a
tactic of maintaining power and control

over the, the family including the pet.

So, So, there might be
physical signs in the animal.

We know about pain, and pain can indicate,
can come through a behavioural indicator.

So, if they are abusing the animal in
some way that isn't, um, a massive,

um, like, broken leg or something like
that, there might be pain in other areas

that might be indicating there's abuse.

Um, and then it's kind of
that behavioural, behavioural

side of things as well.

But I go into a lot more
detail in, uh in the training.

Speaker: So do you see, is there,
you were saying that this is,

you know, an international,
are there sort of differences?

Is there like, you know, in the way
these cases are treated from, you know,

I don't know, in this, like by the, by
the authorities or is there, do you find,

is this, is this how this plays out?

Is this different, let's say
in the States versus Europe or

are there differences locally?

Speaker 2: So in terms of perpetration,
Yes, so how someone might perpetrate

their abuse might have, um, be
influenced by their cultural background.

Um, so for example, with forced marriage,
um, that's something that's more common

in, in kind of South Asian communities.

Um, that's not to say it only happens
there, it does happen in kind of

Orthodox Jewish, um, um, communities.

It happens, um, in some
communities, to be honest.

Um, it's really important that It's not,
it's about saying cultural acceptance, so

accepting someone's culture and someone's
beliefs is really important, you know,

um, but, um, Jasvinder Sanghera, who
is the, um, founder of a charity called

Karma Nirvana, and they support, in the
UK, they support, um, survivors of forced

marriage, um, and she says, she, she
said in a, in a TED Talk, and I found

it really poignant, she said, cultural
acceptance does not mean accepting the

unacceptable, So abuse is unacceptable
and there is no excuse for abuse.

So, um, saying it's part of
my religion or it's part of my

culture is not a valid excuse for
hurting or abusing someone else.

Um, so with forced marriage and,
um, especially in the UK, um,

perpetrators will use kind of
the, our immigration system as an

additional perpetration tactic.

So they'll, um, They'll kind of say,
um, if you leave me, then I'll tell the

authorities that you're here illegally,
or I won't let you have your pass,

or, or, especially if they've married
a British national, that can become,

um, quite difficult, um, especially
in the UK with our benefit system,

who can and can't access benefits, and
therefore there's additional barriers

for leaving for certain survivors
based on their intersecting identities.

Um, so for example with LGBTQ plus
survivors as well, there's an additional

element where the perpetrator might use
their identity as a, as a control tactic.

So if, say, someone is gay but not yet
out, they will threaten to out them as a

way of maintaining power and control, or,
um, they know that, you know, because our

systems are institutionally transphobic,
homophobic, racist and sexist, that

they can manipulate this, um, systems
as an arm of their power and control.

Um, so there is, there is,
um, and disability as well.

So like if you had a, if you were a deaf
survivor and you had a hearing partner

who was perpetrating abuse, you ought
to think about how difficult, like

additional barriers for that person to
tell someone because someone might not.

be able to, um, you know, understand
British Sign Language or any other form

of sign language, but also they're not
going to be able to, like, phone someone

in the same way to say they need help.

Um, and so it's looking at all
these different dynamics of abuse.

and thinking about vulnerability
in a different way.

So yeah, it does, so in terms of
perpetration, it can definitely

change based on kind of geography and
background and all those types of things.

And it, but in terms of
response, it does as well.

So we know that, I mean, police
response to domestic abuse is

fairly poor across the board.

Um, I wouldn't say like
any country has it spot on.

And for

Speaker: the animals, like
if you notice something with

animals, like where would you go?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so, so, um, obviously in
the UK, um, and many countries have some

form of animal protection organizations.

So obviously in the UK we have the
RSPCA, the Royal Society Animals.

Um, and Um, there are specific charities
now that will help those who are

fleeing domestic abuse and want, um,
and aren't able to take their pet.

So there's a couple in the UK like,
um, Dog Stress Freedom Program, there's

Cats Protection Lifeline, um, and
there are a few localised ones as well.

But then, but then there is a thing where,
if, for example, with dogs, if you've got

a dog that's heavily traumatised, removing
them from their non abusive family.

Caregiver, which they often
have a very strong bond with.

It's a traumatic to remove
them from each other, um, for

the animal and for the human.

But then where, my thing is,
those then animals get put

into kennels or foster, etc.

And they need specialist
behavioral care because it's

not your average dog Going into,

Speaker: what's the, like, I've heard this
that a lot of, I mean, I definitely have

heard this, that there's a lot of sort
of safe houses for women, you know, where

they're not allowed to bring their dog.

And I'm like, like, what?

You know, it's like, you might
as well just bloody invite

the guy along, you know?

So it's like, I don't like, what, I mean,
is there, is there a reason, like, is

there a reason that kind of makes sense?

Speaker 2: Yeah, there is.

When someone flees to refuge, which
is the crisis emergency accommodation,

that's because there's a serious risk
of life limiting injury or death.

So it's a really serious and,
um, fractious situation, um, and

a really dangerous situation.

So lots of people think that when
someone leaves the safety increases,

but actually the, what actually
happens is the danger increases.

That's when it starts
to get dangerous, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

But that's the thing, it's

Speaker: like, why can't they, like,
if you have a shelter like that,

why can't people bring their dog?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: So, so.

Speaker 2: I think, firstly, when you
go into refuge, you're not normally

housed in the area in which you live,
so you'll move geographically, because

obviously that's an unsafe area now,
even though perpetrators will stalk.

Um, Safe Housing Refuges normally are
multi occupancy, so you, it's not just

one person with their children, it's
like multiple people, so you have to

cater for the fact that that person That
person is, might be fleeing with their

dog because they've got this really strong
bond, but that person that's in the room

next to them has had the perpetrator
use a dog as a weapon on that person.

So they're scared of dogs.

So you can't make, you have to
be trauma informed to everyone.

You can't make an environment which
is unwelcoming to all survivors.

And then some survivors or children
might have, um, You know, allergies, or,

because these, the safe houses are short.

Fair enough, you know, but I'm sort of

Speaker: thinking, if, if, if you tell
me, well, you can come, but your dog

can't, well, then what am I going to do?

I'm going to bloody stay where
I am, and I'm probably going to

get killed in the process, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so the statistics
Those with animals, um, stay longer

than those who don't have animals,
particularly because of that, which

is where the foster schemes come
in, the ones I've just mentioned.

But if you wanted, if you wanted
to leave, um, into a refuge, then

the foster, then there are these
programs which will foster the animal.

You get the dog returned to you,
or the cat returned to you, once

you're in safe accommodation.

Um, I also think, you know, if you
look at it from a dog centric point of

view, it's really stressful for like,
if you're a traumatized dog, to then

be taken from your home but into a
multi occupancy home with other dogs.

You might have a reality, it's just, I
personally think it would be a really

untenable situation and increase stress
for, but also Lots of our dogs are quite

identifiable So the whole point of a
safe house is you don't really go outside

You don't tell anyone where you are.

It would be really unfortunate if
like from for example, my dog He's

a split faced border collie with
three toes He's really identifiable.

So if I fled to a refuge And then, um, the
refuge worker took him out for a walk, and

just by chance, you know, someone who knew
me, they go back and they say to Bob, oh

I think I just saw Bodrick in this house,
just blown, not just your safe house,

but all of the people in that refuge.

So I think that there is pros and
cons, and there are trials happening

in Canada and the States around
creating some sort of structure which

can house people and animals together,
but you've also got to think, some

people don't just have one dog.

Or one cat.

They have multiple, and sometimes
that's a tactic of the perpetrator.

The perpetrator will create, give lots
of animals, so then you've got a house

with lots of animals, and you just can't
take all of them, and then you've got

people with horses, or people with farm
animals, and, and so there's different,

there has to be different structures for
those specific, or exotic pets, you know?

Um, so it's a really hard,
it's, there's no good solution,

but there are efforts to try.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I'm just
thinking like, well, the point

of attack is also like, why do
perpetrators do this in the first place?

You know, you're thinking, well, that
would be kind of the easy solution, right?

Well, not easy, obviously, you know, but
that would really solve it all, right?

So yeah, that's a whole topic
for a different conversation.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, that's very complex.

Very complex and very deep, deep rooted
myths around why people perpetrated,

perpetrate violence and abuse as well.

Um, yeah, so happy

Speaker: to come back to talk about that.

Absolutely.

And so in the meantime, where can
people go and get in touch with

you, find out more about you,
your programs, the work you do?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so, um, I've
got the website, which is www.

sasta.

org, so it's S A H S D A.

I'm sure we can pop it in
the, in the newsletter.

It'll be right below you.

Yeah, and I'm happy to give
you my email address as well.

Um, yeah.

With regards to the upcoming training
that will be released on the website, and

I will be setting up a new, um, specific
Facebook group for those who've done the

qualification and done the e-learning
so that, um, those, they have somewhere

to come if they, you know, they have
their first inkling after being on the

training that something's not right.

They've got a space to
come and ask questions.

Um, I can do like little lives in
there around anything specific.

Um.

So that, that will be set up
as well eventually, hopefully,

in the next few months.

Speaker: Awesome.

Well, thank you so much for, you
know, really pointing our noses to

a topic that's probably right under
our noses and so easy to overlook if

you're not, if you're not informed.

So thank you so much.

Speaker 2: You're so welcome.

Thank you very much for having me.

Thanks so much for listening.

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