Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Peggy.

I'm super excited to have you here.

Well, thank you so much.

I'm super excited to be here.

And we're just saying we need to give a
shout out to Kathy for the introduction.

So I'm pretty sure she'll be listening.

So before we dive into our very juicy
topic, um, let people know where you're

based and what's your business with dogs?

Peggy: Oh, well, thank you for asking.

Um, I am actually based in two places.

So I'm currently in Virginia, um,
but I also have a home in Florida and

that's where my law office is located.

So I bounce back and forth between,
uh, the two states and, um,

meanwhile, my eight dogs are living
in Virginia along with my cat and

my four horses and my husband.

So In that order, right?

Right, exactly.

Always been a huge pet lover.

Um, I think I was not even a year
old when I asked for my first horse,

but, um, didn't get horses until
I was 10, but I've always been

surrounded by dogs and cats and just
a huge animal lover from the get go.

Anke: Oh, I love that.

I love that.

So now I always love it.

Specifically when passions merge, right?

So because that sounds to me like,
correct me if I'm wrong, but it

feels to me that's what you did when
you start talking about pet trusts.

Peggy: Absolutely.

So I had this desire, as a lot of people
do, to write a book, and so I didn't know

what I was going to write on, and I had
been practicing law in the areas of Wills

Trust and Estates for a long time, and I
was brainstorming with a friend, and he

said, well, you should write about pet
trust, because that's something that you

love, and it was exactly the right advice.

And And so I wrote a book about planning
for your pets, making sure that our pets

have a safe and forever home in the event
that something happens to us, either

we pass away or we become disabled.

I think the mistake we make as
pet owners is we always think that

we're going to outlive our pets.

And, um, that's not always true, and
especially if you're a pet lover.

Um, we tend to get more pets
as the ones we lose pass away.

Um, we tend to replenish that because we
have that hole in our heart that can only

be filled by the love of another dog.

Anke: So true, isn't that so true?

And I mean I've I've
certainly had that that sense.

It's like well, I don't
really care if I die.

That's all right, you know
It's just like oh my god, what

happens to the dogs, right?

And uh, yeah funny actually a
friend of mine around the corner

She's got six dogs And then she'll
sometimes look after others.

So there, but there's like,
yeah, one just passed.

And so there's this, well, we're
not going to get any more dogs.

Well, unless there's somebody like, unless
there's one in real need, you know, so

I was like, yeah, I wouldn't put my hand
anywhere to, you know, so there's a good

chance that she'll have another dog.

So that's, yeah.

And I think there'll always be one
that looks at you, you know, so it

does make sense, but can you Like
what it means to have a pet trust.

Peggy: Sure, absolutely.

So people are used to maybe
thinking about trust for themselves.

For their children, for people
who might have special needs, but

we tend to forget about our pets.

And we have this idea that if something
happens to us that just miraculously

our family or our friends are
going to step forward and volunteer

to take on this responsibility
that we made a commitment to.

And yet we know that that's not really
true because Hundreds of, literally

thousands of animals end up euthanized
in animal shelters annually because

their pet parents didn't have a plan
for what was going to happen to them.

So, I started thinking
about this topic in depth.

And in the United States, all 50 states
and the District of Columbia have

statutes that permit the creation of
a pet for the, I mean, the creation

of a trust for the benefit of a pet
where the pet is the beneficiary.

Historically, Um, you couldn't have a
non human as the beneficiary of a trust,

but with the change in the laws, um,
that really opened the door for people

to be able to do planning for their pets.

And the thing that I always talk
to people about is, these are the

really important things, is figure
out who you trust to take care of

your pets on a short term basis.

And then figure out who you trust to take
care of your pets on a long term basis.

And it might be the same people,
but I want you, I want people to

think through both of those, because
it might not be the same people.

And we want to make sure that if the
people we've chosen are either unable

or unwilling to serve at that time,
that we have some alternate sources.

So I like to go three deep if we can.

And, um, sometimes people aren't
enough and we have to pick

organizations as our final choice.

So that's really where
we get started Anke.

Anke: Oh, that's that makes so much sense.

Now the interesting piece is I, I heard
head trust and my first thing was my,

my first, my, my mind went like, okay,
so you basically save up money for that.

Is money a part of it or, or,
but not the primary part is from

what I understand you just said.

So,

Peggy: you're right.

I mean, it is definitely part of it
because if somebody left you their four

dogs, um, it might be nice if they also
left you some money for their care.

So, we all know how much it costs to
take care of our animals, and that's

not necessarily a responsibility we
would want to put on somebody else

without providing some assistance
in the form of financial assistance.

So thinking about how much money you
want to leave for the benefit of your

pets is also really, really important.

And I think that traditionally
people underfund, um, how much

they should leave for their pets.

And what I try to get people to
think about is, how much do you

spend to take care of your pets now?

Figure that out to be an annual number
per animal or per dog and then multiply

that by an extraordinarily long lifetime.

So if you think your dog is going
to live for 15 years, I say assume

they're going to live to be 20.

Um, so that you have that cushion built
in and that way if there's an emergency

or if there's a surgery that we didn't
count on, we've got those extra funds.

And I'd always rather see somebody
overfund, so leave too much

money, than not enough money.

And then I like to encourage people
to leave whatever's left, after the

pets have been properly cared for,
to their favorite animal charity.

Hmm, yeah, that makes,

Anke: that makes so much sense.

Now I'm also curious about, like,
how do you go about or what do

you take into consideration when
you choose the people, right?

So I'm now thinking like, okay,
the, you know, because you say

like people you trust, right?

That's where for me personally,
it gets a little difficult, right?

Because there's lots of people
that I really like and I wouldn't

trust with my dogs, right?

So, my parents, who I would fully
trust with my dogs, yeah, but You know,

they're at an age and, you know, so where
it's like I can't trust that they'll

be there when, you know, whatever.

So, so also, like, do you have, like, what
does the conversation need to look like?

And, you know, with, and what's
the difference between the short

term and the long term care?

Peggy: So, um, that, those are really
good questions because, number one,

we should be having conversations
with the people that we choose.

We don't want it to be a surprise, like
you get a phone call and go, oh, hi,

you're now going to be responsible for
all of Anke's dogs, and congratulations.

Um, Yeah, we want to
have that conversation.

So sometimes short term just
means like, okay, we find out that

something's happened to you and now
we've got to make some immediate

provisions to take care of the dogs.

That could be in a boarding facility,
that could be with a pet sitter that

you trust that could come to your house
for a period of time, but maybe those

aren't the situations where you would
want your dogs to reside long term.

So let's say your parents don't
live near you and we needed to

get those animals transported.

to wherever it is that your parents live.

So when you're thinking about a trust,
a trust is a legal construct, really.

So it's a written document that
essentially has a couple of parties.

It has you as the person who
creates the trust, the trustmaker.

It has the trustees, and that would be
you during your lifetime, but others in

the event of your disability or death.

And then for your pets, you've got
the short term and the long term

pet caregivers, and then you've
got your remainder beneficiaries.

But the trustees are the people that are
really doing the oversight for what's

going on month to month, year to year,
with the animals and with the money.

So sometimes people want to name the
same people as the trustees and the

pet caregivers, and that's fine if you
really, really trust those people, but

you've got the same person providing
care who's overseeing the money and

maybe that's not the best decision.

Anke: I was just thinking about
that, like, that's all, like, what if

somebody goes, Oh yeah, I'll do it.

And then they take the money,
go on a holiday and, and, you

know, don't care for the dogs.

Right.

So they, that's why, why there is
that other, like, in theory, that

other person in between who just
keeps an eye on making sure that it's

actually being acted on as planned.

Peggy: So, it just builds in
an extra layer of protection.

Um, an example I always give is the
one where, let's say that I wanted

to leave all of my dogs to my sister,
Anne, along with the sum of money.

If I just make that as an outright
distribution, okay, Anne, here's my

dogs, here's my, here's the money.

She could do just
exactly as you suggested.

She could say, thank you for the
money, drop the dogs off at the

nearest shelter, and, you know,
be done with the whole affair.

Um, but, if I want to make sure that
the money's being used for their

proper care, I probably shouldn't
put her in charge of the money.

Or, I should add a second person, um,
as a co trustee to help facilitate that.

Anke: I mean, in your experience,
like, do the, like, do people

honor those, those agreements?

Is that, like You know, I'm just
over like a little bit like, oh god

in Spain, I wouldn't know whether
somebody even like, yeah, whatever

piece of paper will do, you know.

Peggy: So, um, I think depending on state
law, um, or the law of your jurisdiction,

whether or not pet trusts are recognized,
there are lots of opportunities to

enter into less legal agreements.

So maybe just a contract
as opposed to a trust.

Um, But yes, I think overall people
do honor those and recognize them

as legally binding agreements.

And there's been some litigation though.

So as you can imagine, there's a
very famous case in the United States

involving Leona Helmsley, who was one
of the founders of a large hotel chain.

And when she died, she left her dog.

Aptly named trouble.

Um, $13 million, and a judge stepped
in and said that he thought that

$13 million was too much for a dog.

And so they reduced the amount of money
that was being left for Trouble's benefit.

Couple of things here.

Number one, I don't think it
was the judge's prerogative to

decide what the proper number was.

I mean, he exercised that
jurisdiction, obviously.

But it was Leona Helmsley's money and
she should be able to leave however much

she wants for the benefit of her dog.

The problem was there
were people involved.

And so the people were the
ones that challenged the trust.

Obviously, the dog didn't, um,
walk into court and say, hey,

I think 13 million is too much.

Right?

So it was the people that got involved.

And so I think you have to balance.

What you're leaving for the purpose and
that's why I always suggest a charity as

the final beneficiary instead of people
because I don't like to give people an

incentive to, um, not follow your wishes.

Anke: Yeah, no, that
makes, that makes sense.

I mean, would you, I don't know how many

people usually have who they would trust
with their dogs, like, but I personally,

I'm very much like, okay, there's like
very few people on this earth who I trust

with my dogs, you know, where I'm from.

I would be sure that they're not
just capable of taking care of

them, but they'd also want them,

Peggy: you

Anke: know, so, because you don't
want to throw these people under

the bus either, you know, like, just
sort of dump that responsibility on

them when they've not, not chosen it.

So what kind of organization, when you
say, well, okay, as a last resort, when

you say, you know, because that also
takes the pressure off, like, say, if

I have a first level person that I'm
thinking, like, okay, I'd love you

to Take care of the dogs, you know,
but if they for some reason can't do

it, or they also feel like they have
a bit of a way out, so it's not like,

okay, you're, that's your problem now.

What kind of, because that's the
thing, I wouldn't want to, wouldn't

want them to end up in some, you
know, shelter or something, right?

So it's almost like, what kind of
organizations or like, who would

you suggest to be the, you know,
You know, bucket kind of at the end.

There are

Peggy: lots of animal organizations
these days who are developing programs

for the long term care of people's pets.

These include rescues, shelters, some
universities through their veterinary

school programs have started some
programs for long term care for pets.

I created an organization called
Animal Care Trust USA you Um, just

for that purpose to act as trustee
and or to provide, um, permanent

placement for animals through a network.

There are organizations that we
call perpetual care facilities.

That really that's what they're designed
to do is to provide this lifetime care.

In some instances, it may not be the
lifestyle that your pet would be used

to because you want them to maybe
live in a more home like environment.

So, Not going to be a suitable
suggestion for everybody.

I'm one of those crazy people, Anke,
that when I die, I don't want my dogs

or my cat or my horses to have to move.

I want them to live in my house,
and then I want the pet caregiver

to come and live at my house and
take care of my animals, so that

the only thing that's missing is me.

that their life really,
they're still in their,

Anke: oh, I hadn't even thought of that.

Yeah.

Peggy: Yeah.

So that their life really
goes on unchanged except for.

Who's doing the walking, the cleaning
the feed bowls, providing the food,

taking them to the vet, um, doing
their, you know, daily care routines.

Um, and so it is difficult to find
people that you trust, but I challenge

people to develop relationships with
younger people who really love pets.

Um, a good source are the veterinary
technicians that work at, you know, Um,

your vet's office, because as a general
rule, those people are going to be younger

and Um, obviously they love pets or
they wouldn't be working in that role.

Anke: That's such a, that's
such a good idea to even think

in that direction, right?

To not just sort of scan,
like in my mind, I'm sort of

scanning my contact book, right?

Just like, who would I,
you know, Jesus, you know?

And, um, yeah, but to actually
cultivate relationships for that.

Yeah.

Oh, well that makes, and I guess
that, you know, you think about if

you have, uh, somebody who's studying,
well they'd love to have a place

to stay, you know, it's like, yeah.

Right.

Peggy: I had the opportunity to speak
at PetSitters International, which again

is a great organization for people to
look to, but I asked the question to

the audience, um, who here would be
willing to move into someone else's

house if you knew all of the expenses
were going to be provided for you?

in order to care for their dogs or their
cat or their bunny rabbits or their

horses and um, I would say more than 50
percent of the room their hands shot up.

I'm pretty sure, yeah, I'd be lying,

Anke: yeah.

That makes, that's, yeah, that
makes it so much, it feels so

much more doable like that.

You know, because that's the thing.

It's like, if I'm the only crazy dog
person in my family, you know, I'm

thinking like I might not have somebody
in my immediate family, my, like, if I

take my, my parents, for example, they
love dogs and they consciously don't have

one because they love traveling more.

Even if we took the age out of the
equation here, you know, they love my

dogs, they wouldn't be keen to have them
because then they can't go anywhere.

Right.

So it's.

It's um, a whole different
direction to look into, which

I think makes a lot more sense.

Peggy: Yeah, and, and
even, you're exactly right.

I mean, even if we have people that
love our dogs, um, They may not have

a lifestyle that would be conducive
to providing them with the kind of

care that you would want them to have.

Um, maybe they live in an apartment and
you want your dogs to live on a piece

of property where they have room to run.

Um, so you always, you have to take
all of those things into consideration

and that's why it's so important
too to have those multiple layers

of people because We never know what
somebody's circumstances are going to

be at that relevant moment in time.

Anke: Yeah, and I think the
biggest thing I see is to even

start thinking in that direction.

Like, You know, it's
like build that network.

It's like when you go on LinkedIn, right?

You can't stop building a network
when you already need a job, right?

So you need to cultivate those
relationships before you need them.

And I think it's the same here.

So you don't want to like scramble
like crazy, like, okay, now I can't

take care of my dog, well, if I'm dead,
then I can't even do anything anymore.

And so you need to think
about that before you need it.

Peggy: Absolutely, well in advance of need
and as a general rule, I think people are

really optimistic because we always say,
when I win the lottery, and if I die, and,

and so we forget that we really do have
to plan for that eventuality when we die.

And, you know, our things are
unimportant, but our pets are.

are living, breathing, loving,
sentient beings that we have made

a lifetime commitment to and so
we owe it to them to continue that

commitment on into the future.

Anke: Yeah, no, that makes,
that makes so much sense.

Yeah, it goes kind of like, oh yeah, I
hadn't even thought of, you know, the,

the house sitter and then also looking
at like consciously looking at younger

people because yeah, that's the thing.

If I look at my parents, well,
oh, that's kind of worse, right?

So that doesn't, and, and friends
tend to be sort of the same age.

So, you know, that's, you know,
maximum like that first layer.

So you definitely want some younger
people in the mix that it makes.

Peggy: Yeah, so every time you go
to the vet, you have to take the

vet techs out for lunch, right, or
bring donuts or something to get on

their good side and start developing
that relationship with these younger

people, or by joining some, you know,
animal related clubs or organizations

where, um, you might be exposed to
folks that have a similar interest.

Anke: So maybe

Peggy: you could enter into an agreement
with somebody that says, well, if you

take my dogs, I'll take your dogs,

Anke: right?

Yeah, totally.

Totally.

I was just thinking like, well,
I could do that with my friend

and then I could easily end up
with six more and then I'll get

Peggy: you.

Well, if she leaves you the
money, then there you go.

Get a bigger place and, um,
you have a happy dog farm.

Anke: Totally, totally.

I wouldn't mind actually.

Yeah, that's funny because that's also
the other piece like, you know, when

you think about it, when you think about
even when you go on holiday or something

like to kind of find a place to stay
for one dog is always one thing, right?

You know, but like, what
do you do with eight?

Peggy: Well, right, yeah.

So I used to travel from Florida
to Virginia with six dogs.

This is before I, um, my farm was
ready here in Virginia and Six dogs.

We had to drive non stop because I
always jokingly said I don't have

any friends who like me enough to let
me stay over with six dogs, right?

Anke: Yeah, no, that's the thing,
is that you have to, I don't know,

like a camper van or something
where you can all sleep in it.

It's the only way to go, right?

Peggy: Yeah, that's exactly right.

Or if you tried to stay, and we have
tried this, staying at like a Airbnb,

um, You know, the dogs are out of
sorts because they're not in their home

environment and they're very nervous.

So, for us, it just became
easier to drive straight through.

Um, and the dogs were
perfect angels the whole way.

They slept most of the time.

Here we were driving and driving and
driving for hours on end just to make sure

that they were not gonna be uncomfortable.

Right.

Anke: Yeah.

Well, all the stuff we thought
we do for our dogs, right.

Right,

Peggy: exactly.

Anke: So, so if somebody goes,
well, hey, that makes sense.

I wanna start.

moving some things.

I want to get started.

I want to find out what's
available and possible in my area.

So what's a good place for people
to go and where they can they find

out about you and get in touch
with you and you know make those

Peggy: lots of lots of places to start.

So I do have a book called All
My Children Wear Fur Coats How

to Leave a Legacy for Your Pet.

So there's a lot of really
good ideas in the book.

Secondarily, If you already have an estate
plan, and I hope you do, um, you have an

attorney, perhaps, that you can talk to
who would be aware of the laws in your

jurisdiction about planning for pets.

But I would caution people to work with
people who are pet lovers, so that they

have that natural inclination to think
about what would be best for pets.

And then, um, explore the alternatives.

Like, like you said, start developing
those relationships and networks

with people who are younger
that you know to be pet lovers.

Um, you know, use a pet sitter on a
regular basis so you can develop that

relationship too, so that you have that
short term caregiver at least, right?

Anke: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, absolutely
we're gonna pop the link to the book

in the in the show notes and you know
Make it easy for people to find you.

So thank you so much Like this was
really eye opening and I'm thinking

Jesus like yeah We really have to all
think about that because you can't just

you know Throw the closest people under
the bus when something happens and or

leave your leave your dogs Unattended.

So that's, that's probably the
worst thing that can happen.

Peggy: Yeah, you definitely
don't want to leave it to chance.

You want to have a plan.

And I like to say that, uh,
wishful thinking isn't planning,

Anke: right?

Not a strategy, right?

Love that.

Well, thank you so much.

This was an absolute delight and
quite the eye opener, to be honest.

Like, yeah.

So definitely some, some work to do.

So thank you.

Thank you for filling us in.

You're

Peggy: so welcome.

Yeah.

Happy planning, right?

Exactly.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.