Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Pilley.

I always say it and I always mean it.

I'm super excited to have you here.

Pilley: Oh, Anke.

I'm really thrilled to be here.

Anke: Well, we have a really lovely
juicy topic today, but before we

get there, let people know where
in this wonderful world are you

and what's your business with dogs?

Pilley: Oh, well, my business with dogs
primarily is centered around one dog.

Which is, uh, my father's dog,
Chaser, who has the largest language

learning of any animal in the world.

She learned the names of
over a thousand objects.

And, uh, so she scientifically
has the largest language learning.

Um, of any dog and, and any
man, animal, just because of the

way she can put words together.

So, I was part of her, I
was one of her teachers.

She was a family pet.

I managed her and my father after
their research went globally viral.

And, um, That was in 2011.

So I've written and, uh, produced and, um,
presented on sort of every major network

and in media outlets sort of globally.

And, um, again, that was my father,
John Pilley, and his dog, Chaser.

So, um, I'm kind of continued to carry
the torch because the methods that

they used were kind of groundbreaking.

Um, particularly, particularly as far as
language learning and animal cognition.

Um, and, but I'm his daughter,
I'm John Pilley's daughter,

Pilley Bianchi, and yeah, you can
find me at, uh, PilleyBianchi.

com on Facebook and Instagram
and, uh, yeah, my website.

Anke: Hmm.

I don't even know where to
start digging into this.

Pilley: That was a mouthful.

That was a mouthful.

I know.

Anke: But there's several, several
kind of angles I would like to

kind of dig in a little deeper.

Um, I mean, one thing I'm, you know,
I'm, I'm a linguist and I'm nuts about

language and I'm mostly interested about
in, not so much the languages itself,

but the method of teaching the process
of learning and teaching language.

So I'm like, super curious to start
with, like, what even gave you the idea

to teach this dog a bunch of words,
you know, and how did you go about it?

And, you know, when did you
realize that Chaser wasn't like

your everyday, regular dog?

Pilley: Oh, well, there's a
lot to unpack there as well.

So, um, my father was the one that
taught Chaser all these words, and

what inspired him was the work with
Lewis Herrmann and the Dolphins,

um, Sue Savage Rombaugh, and Kanzi.

The Chimp, uh, Irene Pepperberg
with Alex the Parrot.

And so, um, these were species
that were able to learn words,

um, but they didn't even have an
interspecies bond like we do with dogs.

So my father was a behavioral psychologist
in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and he

was fascinated with, um, animal cognition.

And it was our, early pets, uh, are
early dogs that really inspired him to

try to teach our dog human language.

And he also determined that it would
be infinitely more fun for the students

in the lab and classroom to work with
dogs than work with rats and pigeons.

And so what his original goal was
to teach dogs words independent,

proper nouns independent from verbs.

So what he discovered though with
our dog Yasha who was super fast

and Yasha would accompany him on
all his white water trips and um,

uh, hiking and uh, uh, windsurfing.

So Yasha learned, behaviors very rapidly.

And we would ask him to go find the paper,
and of course he'd go lickety split out

to the mailbox, all excited, running back.

And once he was in the house, and
my father would ask him to find the

paper, it didn't make any sense.

It was the behavior of running
out, fetching it and bringing it

in that was excitement and that's
what those words meant to Yasha.

The paper didn't have value to Yasha
because he couldn't play with it.

He couldn't chew on it.

You know, we didn't throw it and
toss it and he, it had no value

once the paper was in the house.

But, so for this reason, during
his research, uh, for 25 years, he

worked with dogs, and they were able
to teach them very, very complex

behaviors, but they could not
isolate the nouns from the verbs.

So, it was this, um, quest that he
was really searching for, and it, it

eluded him, but it was, When he started
to go to border collie trials in his

retirement, that he was witnessing the
nuance of the sounds that border that the

farmers make for the dogs and how they
could identify these different noises.

that were so nuanced that he had the
audacity to say to a border collie

farmer, you know, science tells us
your dogs are really smart, but they

don't actually even know their names.

They don't, they're not able
to learn names of, of people

and, and, and other things.

And the border collie farmer said,
whoa, that's what science tells us?

Well, tell me why I can call
out Jeb out of five other dogs.

And ask him to go find Millie
and Tilly, two sheep, out of a

herd, and he'll do it every time.

So that gave my father great pause.

And in science, there's two
ways science makes a mistake.

By reading too much into their
data, or too little into their data.

And my father had read too
much into his data saying that

dogs could not learn language.

So, he determined that
words had to have value.

And in order for them to have value, they
had to have value to Chaser in her world.

And it was through play
that they had value.

And it was just sheer joy of play
and learning that she was able

to learn over a thousand objects.

Anke: Wow.

I think learning with play, I think that
is really, there's a whole, you know,

it's a whole world behind that, you know?

Pilley: Oh, play is probably the
most powerful learning tool there is.

And, um, What happens in play,
I mean, remember the first time

you, you swam, or you rode a
bike, or, um, you threw a frisbee.

You know, it, there's an
inherent excitement there.

And what you liked, if you liked it,
even though you weren't very good at

it, you We're going to repeat that
behavior because learning anything

takes repetition and practice.

And so if we're playing with our dogs,
we're giving them an opportunity to emit

natural behaviors and instincts, you
know, like running or finding, using

their nose, um, playing builds confidence.

Um, it's, it's, again, it's an innate
behavior that all young animals exhibit.

Animals in the wild, and which is, is a
tough one to understand because animals in

the wild, if they play, they could attract
predators, or they're using valuable

energy that they've got to conserve
because food source isn't right there.

What we've discovered is that Play is
innately reinforcing, and it allows

these animals to be in the moment of joy.

And it's just fun.

It feels good.

Play feels good.

Anke: Hmm.

I mean, I don't know.

I've seen, I've seen documentary,
you know, when you see little

lion cubs and they just play,
you know, like it's not, yeah.

I mean, that now, it
makes me, uh, curious.

about dogs who don't play, right?

I think I've seen a lot of dogs
who, and I mean, I've had one,

this one, who was sort of quite shut
down when he came and quite traumatized.

Like I kind of know there
was, you know, stuff going on.

And so he never really
knew how to play, right?

So other dogs go like, you're weird.

And so then there was never that flow.

So.

If we actually work off the assumption
that all animals, or especially all

dogs, innately know how to play Is
there something that we can do to help

a dog sort of rediscover that ability?

Pilley: You know, that's,
that's a great question.

So, and I've, we've encountered this
with my sister had a rescue dog and,

um, she did not, she, she was, you know,
pretty damaged and, um, introverted

and she did not know how to play.

And I would throw a ball at her
and it just hit her off the head,

you know, I'm like, Oh my God.

That's so sad.

And, but once she came to live at
my folks house and with Chaser,

they never played together.

And that's another thing.

Let me just take a little sidestep there.

Not all dogs like to play with other dogs.

And when, and dogs don't
play by themselves very much.

They like to have a buddy.

They like to have a partner.

So, um, Spirit, who was so damaged, didn't
play, but by watching Chaser play and us

engaging, she actually gradually learned
after about a year through imitation.

And one day she actually
ran for the ball herself.

And it was sort of like
that breakthrough moment.

Um, but there's also some people say,
well, my dog doesn't like to play.

And I had a friend that brought his
puppy over here who was only about seven.

She was about seven months
old and she was really sweet.

She was a chocolate, um, something
or other, but she was a mutt.

And, um, she was, not a timid dog,
but she wasn't assertive either.

She was just kind of around.

So, um, I didn't have it.

He said she doesn't like to play.

And I said, well, how do you play?

How do you play with her?

And they said, well, we don't,
we just bought her all these toys

and she's not interested in them.

And I was like, wow, okay, well, it's the
engagement that's going to be really fun.

So I said, all right,
let me try something.

I didn't have anything in
my backyard but a pine cone.

And, uh, I started tossing it
in the air and dropping it and

kicking it and I'd run after it.

And then I'd kind of juggle with it.

And then I tossed it and, um, it fell.

And Ruthie went for it too.

After about a couple of minutes,
she went for the pinecone.

And then it was at that point that I
was like, Oh, Ruthie, you have pinecone.

I want pinecone.

And so then I started chasing her, you
know, and the cat and mouse game started.

went on and I kept saying,
Oh, good, good catch.

Or this is, and I kept pairing
this play with the name Pine Cone.

You have Pine Cone.

I want Pine Cone.

Catch Pine Cone.

Find Pine Cone.

I would hide it in plain
sight from her on a chair.

And I'd say, Ruthie, get Pine Cone.

Find Pine Cone.

After about, I don't know how long it
was, I got tired and we took a break.

And Ruthie had not only
learned how to play.

But, um, she learned the name Pinecone.

Anke: That's incredible.

I, you know, it's that, it's like
when you think about it, like

Duolingo works like that, you know?

So like, you just play and you repeat,
you know, it's a combination and then

there's little rewards along the way, you
know, little dopamine hits by, hey, yeah.

You know, extended your streak.

You raised in whatever the Diamond
League, you know, I think at the end of

the day, it's the same concept, isn't it?

Pilley: It, it, it is completely, you
know, and, and it's, and Ruthie built,

built a bond with me, you know, she
was looking at me, she was engaged

with me, and she was wagging her tail.

So, um, Yeah, and now whenever
she comes over, I did this with

another dog, but when they come
over, they're happy to be here.

Anke: Yeah, yeah, that
makes so much sense.

So what's like, apart from not
actually playing with the dog, are

there other mistakes people make?

Like, I don't know, for example, like,
like where I'm going with this is,

uh, for example, like tongue of war.

Right.

And, uh, so there will be, my dad will
play tug of war with mine and he will

hang on there for dear life, you know?

So I will always let the dog win, right?

So the dog, I want, I want the
dog to walk away with this because

then I know that then they will
come back and want more of it.

Exactly.

So where's your dad?

feels like, no, no, no, no, no.

Like, you really have to win the thing.

So he quite often will pull hard and
then the dog loses interest, right?

Well, of

Pilley: course.

If I'm always losing, that's
why I didn't play basketball.

I was terrible at it.

I never won.

You know, why would you want to do?

Yeah, so you're absolutely correct.

When we worked with Chaser,
we always let her win.

You know, there's going to be times
where, yeah, you, you want them

to feel good about themselves.

And if he, if he wants to win, then he
should play tug of war with you, you know.

That's more matched.

That's not fair.

Isn't

Anke: that like something
typical that people do wrong?

Like, you know, say in this panel, there's
sort of certain things that, where people

go, well, actually, if you knew that,
your dog would be more playful and the

relation, because that's the thing.

It's like, if we realize how much
Play really deepens that bond and

creates that relationships and helps
the dog relax, helps the dogs learn.

It's almost like, yeah, well, that's
an art worth mastering, right?

So what are other things
that people get wrong?

Pilley: Get wrong with dogs?

Well, they, they, they get, they,
sometimes people think that what

they're communicating is very, very
clear, you know, and and It is not.

Um, and it's, this was, my father
described this, uh, he, pretty well.

So, when he was a,

Back in the 70s, and he was bringing, he
would also take, um, students on white

water trips, because he believed if the
experience is fun, you know, you're going

to have an opportunity to organically
learn, which is, is pretty fun.

It, it feels good.

So, what he would tell people, they
would have two people in a white water

canoe, and he'd say, Canoeing requires,
When you're having trouble maneuvering

the canoe, you're going to be certain
that your partner is the problem.

It mostly, they most likely are not.

So it's like, We get this
wrong with dogs all the time.

We're like, well, they're not getting it.

So they're electing not to get it.

Um, that, but that's not true.

Dogs want to please us.

They want to get on, but we're not
being clear in our communication.

Anke: Yeah, oh my God.

So, I mean, that's actually a pretty
good ground rule to give somebody, right?

If your dog doesn't get it, yeah,
you know, chances are it's like

you're not explaining it well enough.

Pilley: That you're not, you're
not, and we, I talk about this in

my book too, it's like back up, re
evaluate, and try a different way.

It's like if, my father always
highlighted, if learning doesn't take

place, we have to change the methods.

We have to assume the student
Every dog is different.

There are some, um, very simple,
um, concepts that we can use with,

universally with dogs, but we have to
pay attention to the individual dog.

You know, and how our
behavior affects the dog.

Anke: Yeah, that makes so much sense.

I can't remember, I wish I could
remember where I first heard it.

Because I wish I could take
credit for it, but I can't.

And there was a definition that said
like, learning and teaching, kind of both

sides, like two sides of the same coin.

is the process of connecting
something unknown to something known.

I'm like, this is so spot on because
we've all sat through classes

where the teacher kind of, you
know, connects something known to

something known and then you're bored.

And you know, a lot of the time when it
comes to tech and stuff like that, people

go, yeah, well, you know, the ex, like,
I don't want to Google it because I'm

not going to understand the explanation.

So when someone gets connected
to something unknown, then you're

lost and then you feel really
out of it, you know, so you need

to find that touch point, right?

And that's the thing for each
person, but for each dog as well.

And my experience for like getting
it wrong was that I thought I was

taking tiny steps and then I found
some other instructions where I

realized, well, actually I'm just.

Anke Herrmann, Taming the Tech Monster,
Anke Herrmann, Taming the Tech Monster,

Anke Herrmann, Taming the Tech Monster.

Pilley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just
back up, stop, and always, when

you're working with your dog,
always, always end on a high note.

You know, have them, if you're
unsuccessful with something, okay,

we'll stop that, and then do something
that they can do, and then, You know,

so that everybody, that everybody can
feel good about themselves because

dogs are very, very sensitive to
failure and, um, who isn't though?

You know, we all are, you know, so we
have to boost them up and, uh, be a

little more aware of, uh, our actions.

Anke: Yeah, for sure.

For sure.

So tell me a little bit about, you know,
um, what, what's the latest book about?

What's the message behind,
what's the intention?

Pilley: Oh, well the, my latest book,
uh, um, this was the book my father and

I were working on before he passed away.

It was the second book that his
publisher was interested in, and

it was more prescriptive, like how
to teach your dog words and why.

And, um, Because the answer is so simple.

It's communication.

Why wouldn't we enhance our communication?

Right?

So it had a lot of tutorial stuff,
but then once he passed, I didn't

know what to do with this book.

So COVID happened.

I knew there were some really rich
stories, um, of experiences that I had

with our family dogs and our horses
and just sort of the magic of my dad.

There is.

Um, uh, no family pet was off
limits as a science fair project.

And so he kind of inspired all of
this, um, uh, us to work with our

animals in creative ways and with
using only positive reinforcement.

So, um, uh, I was trying to figure
out the next steps for this book

and how to put the book in my voice.

And, um, then COVID happened
and I was really inspired by.

This English book, The Bull,
Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and

the Horse, by Charlie MacCasey.

It's sort of a children's book,
but it is beautifully illustrated.

It's really for adults, and it's got
these little isms throughout the book.

And I was like, what?

If I worked with an illustrator and, um,
tried to emulate sort of this format so

that it was easy to read, it had, um,
valuable information, science, philosophy,

and, uh, methodologies, but it was
delivered in a fun format and a little bit

cheeky, you know, so it's, it's a little
quirky and funny and I teamed up with New

York Times illustrator Callum Heath and we

Anke: I love it.

And I mean, you know, for somebody
who, who is so in tune with

the importance of play, I would
expect your book to be playful.

Pilley: Playful!

That's what, that's,
that's what it embodied.

My father, everything was about
play and he was, uh, everything

was positive reinforcement.

That's the other thing with,
uh, Chaser is we, she wasn't.

We didn't use treats

because your dog can satiate on treats
and then the motivation lags, so.

But if they're they don't satiate on play.

And, um, so, um, yeah, I forgot
where I was going with that.

But, um, yeah, so learning should be fun.

And he also repeatedly said that
science needs to work harder to deliver

valuable information to the masses.

in ways that we, they can understand.

We can understand.

So if the, the mind doesn't meet the
heart, we're kind of missing the boat,

you know, that's a missed opportunity.

So that's sort of what this book is.

That's why I wrote this book.

I

Anke: love it.

So where can people go and grab a copy
and find out more about you, get in touch?

Pilley: Well, um, they can
find a book, uh, pretty much at

any, well, it's, it's in the U.

S., it's also in the U.

K., um, it's coming out in, um, Romania.

Um, I don't know if it's in, it might be,
I don't know if it's available in Spain,

but, um, it's called For the Love of Dog.

Let's see.

I just happen to have a copy.

I just

Anke: happen to have a
copy, but I would hope so.

Pilley: For the Love of Dog.

It's just right there, um, on my wall.

No, For the Love of Dog, the
Ultimate Relationship Guide.

So, Yeah, so you can see this is
Calum Heath's illustrations are in

the New York Times every day, but,
uh, so you can find it on Amazon or

wherever books are sold online, um,
and in bookstores in the United States.

Oh, and to find me, you
can just go to KiliBianchi.

com.

Anke: Also, we'll pop that link in the
show notes and underneath, below or

above this video, wherever you watch it.

Thank you so much.

I'm, I'm just gonna, like,
actually, I was just thinking, hey,

is there a course to learn DOG?

Like, that should be taught
as a language, right?

Yes!

Yeah, thank you so much.

This was absolutely delightful.

And, um, yeah, I will put the link to
the book and, uh, do yourself a favor

and get a copy if you haven't already.

Thank you, Pilli.

This was absolutely wonderful.

Pilley: Oh, thank you, Anke.

Anke.

Thanks so much for listening.

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And if you know a pawsome human
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Email me at Anke.

That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.