Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Rosee.

I'm so excited to have you here.

Rosee: Thank you so much for inviting me.

It's really, really nice of you.

Thank you.

Anke: Well, I always say that
and I always mean it, right?

So let's get started with, let people
know where you're based and, you know,

what's your business with the dogs?

Rosee: Okay, well, um, I'm British,
as you can probably hear, but I

live at the moment in Austria.

were various reasons where, um, my work
took me and, uh, for 13 years I've been

working as a canine behavior advisor.

Um, I'm really passionate, for example,
about lead handling and helping our dogs

navigate our really complex human world.

Um, and I'm really, um, very focused
on their emotions and so it was kind

of natural over a period of time the
way the dog world is unfortunately

now with so many dogs in rescue and
being abandoned and all the things

that happen to dogs, um, that I became
more and more Specialized in dogs with

fear issues, uh, who are anxious, who
are traumatized, or maybe come from

deprivation backgrounds where they haven't
had the chance to meet anything at all.

Like for example, my greyhound
rescued from the racetrack.

And so it was a kind of natural, um,
progression that I started to, um, learn

more about and then did a specialist
training, uh, with, uh, Julian A.

Smith.

on this issue, separation
anxiety, because I had never met

it actually before my Greyhound.

And so if you haven't experienced
it, you often don't know how extreme

this fear and this suffering is.

Yeah.

So that's how I came to look
into this more closely and

Anke: I'm so glad you did.

I'm so glad you did because my first dog,
you know, I Rescued him from the street,

like he was a puppy in like a band by
himself in the street, you know, sort of

somehow just get to scraping by basically.

And he really suffered
from it like massively.

And I didn't, you know, find anybody who
could help at the time, you know, so it

wasn't, it wasn't fun for either of us.

So he didn't, I would basically then as a
result drag the poor soul to all kinds of

places just to not leave him by himself,
you know, which, so I think, So I, I,

I kind of know exactly what my dog did,

That was, you know, well, okay.

There's no doubt about it.

So how would you describe sort of,
let's call 'em symptoms or how would

you recognize that, that a dog actually
suffers from separation anxiety

and isn't just like bored or things
like, oh, I don't want you to go.

Rosee: Yes, well, it's interesting
actually that you say that it was so

obvious to you because the distress of
these dogs is so obvious to everybody,

even if, um, if they're not really dog
people, yeah, so like, so long as the,

um, um, Things that, the behaviors
that we get to see are relatively overt

and the things that we think about
automatically perhaps in relation,

separation related issues are, um,
destruction, coming back to destruction.

You know, my greyhound, for example,
did not yet know really what a door was

because he had never lived in a flat.

So his way of trying to get out
was through the window, right?

So I came back and found it.

Curtains on the floor
and things taken apart.

So that is easy to recognize.

And another thing that we easily
recognize, I think, is the vocalizing

when dogs whine and bark and howl.

The difference between the normal
vocalizing, because all dogs do that

of course, is that When the, um,
caregiver, the primary caregiver

leaves the house, um, they will start
doing these things with more, much

more intensity, and they don't stop.

That is really one of the signs of fear,
because I would not, um, be stuck in

my, sitting with a load of Poisonous
Vipers and just sort of lie down on the

sofa and say, Oh, well, never mind, you
know, somebody will come sooner or later.

I'm just going to scream and I'm going
to go on screaming until I get help.

So, so this is a vocalizing and a
distraction and some dogs pee and poop

in the house, um, from the distress.

So that's relatively easy to recognize,
and we should also be grateful to

neighbors, I think, who say, do you
know your dog is in such distress?

Because otherwise we may not know.

Probably wouldn't know, yeah.

Now, really, really sad, I think,
are that there are many other signs

that are not so obvious, right?

So dogs, Because they are seeking relief
from fear, they could be just freezing,

for example, or they could be shaking and
trembling and drooling or panting, yeah?

And this is different from just
panting because they're too hot.

It's really a lot of pressure behind you.

And one really sad story, one of the
things that we see in dogs who are

frightened and seeking relief is pacing.

And so, A trainer told me once that
somebody in her dog school was there

for many years and for some reason,
which had nothing to do with the

dog, they set up a camera and they
discovered that the dog was pacing all

day, all the time they were at work.

They were out of the house for
eight hours at a time, which

I personally think is insane.

I think everybody thinks mostly
that that's much too long in one

go and he had developed compulsive
behaviors to deal with this.

He would not, he hadn't, he'd
been doing this for years, right?

So what I would definitely recommend is
setting up a camera and really checking.

Don't assume just because you can't
hear your dog barking that they're okay.

Wow,

Anke: I hadn't even thought of that,
that, you know, because like mine

was literally, yes, there were,
I had notes from the neighbours.

I had notes from the neighbours and I
also noticed he usually had like a wet

belly so he would have Pete himself, you
know, so and then that's that part like

it wouldn't stop like it wasn't that he
then just go oh well I'll just settle

like no like this was and he wouldn't
eat anything and so and people are all

give him a contour yeah right you know
like he was way he would he would have

that once I'm back right so but not while
I was away so that but I hadn't thought

of the things that you can't see that
easily so that's so you really should.

set up a camera to sort of
know what they're doing.

Always.

Yeah.

Rosee: It was actually John
Bradshaw in 2000, 2011.

I don't know whether you know
the book that I recommend to

everyone, uh, In Defense of Dogs.

Um, it's a marvelous book and he goes into
the whole separation anxiety thing there.

He was pretty much the first person
who really talked about this on a

wide scale and he talked about the
importance of setting up a camera

and did a very big study actually.

And.

People were watching their dogs
on the camera and they were just

gobsmacked to see how much they
were suffering and they had no idea.

Because when they came back, the dog
will often just behave totally normally.

So you can't say, oh well, when I
come back my dog's totally normal.

Yes, because the situation
has normalized, right?

Yeah, yeah.

It is extraordinary what dogs can suffer
and we know now through the many studies

that are done on this that millions of
dogs are suffering from this unknowing and

without any help and I think that's really
sad so it's one of my big motivations.

Yeah,

Anke: well, so, so how does that happen?

Like, You know, because if I'm looking
at the four that have been in my life,

you know, like the first one had it
really dramatically, um, and the last

ones couldn't care less, like, you
know, so it's like some have it, like,

what, what brings, is there something
that brings it on or is it something,

are there situations where I think
it's more likely if this or how,

like, what's, what's known about that?

Rosee: Well, that's a
really, really good question.

Um, I think scientifically we, we don't
entirely know the exact mechanisms

that kick it off, but we do know
the context that they come up in.

Um, John Bradshaw again, because
this impressed me so much at that

time, because it happened to be
the time that I got my greyhound,

actually turned the question around.

He asked, um, Why don't all dogs have it?

Because we have selected dogs for
thousands and thousands of years

to want to be with us and they are
social creatures and they need, um,

companionship and staying alone is a
skill that I personally believe should be

prioritized like toilet training, yeah?

Very gently though, much, in much
smaller increments than people think.

So, um, Um, where we do see, see it
arising, sometimes there seems to

be a genetic component because you
sometimes see it in family lines.

Um, it can be learned from the
mother dog, uh, when the puppies

are small, it can be learned.

Um, if she has a problem with
being alone, she might, uh, teach

that in a way to her puppies.

Um,

of course.

Dogs learn by association.

So, something bad might happen.

They might have been alright for a
while and sometimes something bad

happens like I don't know there's a
huge thunderstorm or somebody breaks in.

Um, there was a situation where
somebody broke in and hit the dog for

some reason and Those are, of course,
you know, Where the dog learns that

when I'm alone, bad things can happen.

Um, we know also that life
changes can kick it off.

A dog who was okay, but maybe when there's
a house move, or a child grows up and

goes to college, or some kind of, or
maybe the death of another dog in the

family, that can kind of kick it off.

Sometimes we find that
there are health problems.

Um, which, and also, of course,
getting, as dogs get older, they can

get clingier, um, because they are
maybe losing their sight a little bit

or they're hearing a little bit and
they're becoming more, they feel more

vulnerable and need more support.

So really separation anxiety or
what we actually call separation

related behaviors covers a whole
range of different things and, um

Anke: So, like,

I'm just sort of thinking back, it's like,
oh yeah, Jesus, I tried, like, there are

recommendations, like, you know, there
was stuff that I was being told to do,

you know, and literally none of that
worked, you know, like the stuff that,

um, trainers and vets and people told
me was like, oh, put them in a crate.

Well, that didn't go down well, right.

You know, like, just like, yeah, he
basically took apart the crate and um,

and then my, oh well, you know, the
house is too big, put him in a room.

Well, then that solved the neighbor's
problem because the neighbor wouldn't

hear him banging against the front door
anymore, but he destroyed the room door.

You know, like none of,
like none of the Stop.

You know, and then, yeah, give him
something to entertain himself.

Like that never made sense because
I mean, you could kind of tell

it was like way too stressed to
even pay attention to any of this.

So none of the stuff I was recommended to
do had any, like, not the slightest, like

some, some stuff didn't make sense at all.

And others I tried and
didn't believe the situation.

So what is it that somebody
can do to help the dog?

Rosee: Yeah, you're right.

Um, actually, well, before we get onto
what we can do, I think you described

so well the plight of the caregiver, you
know, the dog owner, because I think we

should actually maybe, because you've
described that so well, that you're

under enough pressure because you can
see your dog is really suffering, right?

And then people are giving you advice,
which doesn't help at all, right?

Um, And they're telling you a lot, a
lot of the time that it's your fault.

For example, it's your fault because
you spoil your dog or it's your fault.

I've

Anke: got that all the time.

Rosee: Yeah, because you let your
dog sleep on the sofa or in the

bed and, um, because you let them
go out the door in front of you.

One thing I think is really sad is that,
um, It's your fault because you are

saying goodbye to your dog before you
leave and greeting when you come back.

So, you know, ignore your dog.

Your dog is desperate and, and you
know instinctively as a dog parent

that, That you don't want to ignore
your dog on top of that, right?

And we know through studies that, um,
saying goodbye and saying hello to

dogs actually helps them because these
rituals, because they have social rituals

and Is it interesting with the food?

Because this is why I really, really,
really plea, make a plea to get a

professional, because there's so much
online, which is really incorrect.

And give them a car or give
them something to chew.

Sounds as though you're helping the dog.

And it's in a lot of the big
dog books, unfortunately.

But the problem with this is, That
there is, um, a thought mistake in this.

Um, people think they're kind of trying
to counter condition it, that the dog

will feel better about them leaving,
but it's the wrong order, right?

It, it maybe help the dog if when
you leave, they get something then,

but you can't do it that way around.

But if you give them something
beforehand, like a call.

And then leave.

You're pairing food with
something very scary.

And we know that it's not going to
take very long because the dog is,

before the dog is afraid of the Kong.

And I have had a client, um,

couldn't feed her dog.

After a few days, because the dog was
so terrified when she turned up with

food, and even if you are distracting
the dog for a while, the dog is eating

it, which most dogs who are very afraid
don't, but if they do, you're only

distracting them, you're not teaching
them a new skill, and when the food is

finished, Finished, they're going to
wake up to the fact that they're alone

suddenly, to a full blown panic attack.

And that is why they then learn
very cleverly that they should

be very wary of the food.

And the terrible thing is that
they become really vigilant.

They're watching your every
single movement, yeah?

Another thing that people are
told to do, yeah, is put them in

a crate and let them cry it out.

And we know We know, um, from
research, as though we didn't know

it instinctively, but also with
children who were left on their own

to cry, that, um, that is extremely
traumatizing if that happens enough.

And it can even cause neurological
damage because the distress is,

you know, we're hardwired to
stay with the group, aren't we?

And so we need to, we definitely need
to give our dogs a lot of security.

Putting them in a crate is just
an extra layer of isolation.

And sadly, um, people think that crates
are helpful in this context, but dogs

are not den animals, and so this is
really not a, not a good thing at all.

So instead of doing all these
things, another thing that people

do, which I think is so sad, and
that is they practice, they're

told to do this by trying to,
practicing so called departure cues.

Oh, so that means, uh, putting
on your jacket, like, Oh,

Anke: yeah, I've been told that
too, you know, try that out.

So he kind of gets to disassociate
like, oh, grabbing the bag or grabbing

the key doesn't always mean that
didn't make sense to me either.

Because I'm like, now he's a
poor thing and doesn't know

at all what's going on, right?

Now he's gonna get kind of worried about
anything that's unknown sort of thing.

Rosee: Yeah.

I love the way you describe
this because this is perfect.

I did this once.

I read it in a book by a very famous
trainer and I picked my keys and

my dog, Stevie, my greyhound just
freaked out and I thought well that

can't be a good idea because really
you're just triggering the fear.

They're not afraid of the keys, they're
afraid of you leaving, so you're

just triggering the fear over and
over and over and over and over again

without solving the dog's problem.

So, that's a bit of a long winded
way of getting back to your actual

question is what do we do then, instead?

Um, and the only One way we know from
practice and from study to help a

dog recover from this is by a very
carefully led process of desensitization.

It is really analog to the way I
understand in human psychology.

Humans are helped with fears and phobias.

It's called, it's also known
as gradual exposure therapy.

And I think what people Often are
really surprised about is how tiny

the steps we do with the, we're
not doing one minute and then

five minutes and then ten minutes.

This is dog led, we have to, we have
to make sure that we're only practicing

what the dog feels comfortable
with because we don't want to be

practicing fear or anxiety, right.

And people will come sometimes,
they will say to me, my dog can do

5 minutes or 10 minutes, half an
hour outside the door, no problem.

And when I do an assessment with
them, and I'm watching the dog, and

I record it so they can watch it with
me afterwards, we will often see,

usually, that the dog is triggered.

It's already at the door, so maybe
when they touch the door handle,

or the sound of the door handle.

Some dogs are even triggered
when people stand up, right?

Because they've learned that
their only source of information

is to track people's movements.

And so we do, we have a little signal.

A verbal and hand signal.

I like to use this as a safe, so
called safe signal, so that we can

make it predictable for the dog.

It's a way of saying to them,
I'm going to stand up now.

I'm going to move.

And whenever I give this signal,
um, it's a promise to never do

anything that the dog is afraid of.

So they learn when I do this,
it's going to be very, very short.

Absences.

And we're thinking about
absences, but actually the dog

is thinking about us coming back.

So in, in a way, I like to turn it
around, so we're gonna, we practice

loads and loads of times just
coming back before the dog's even

getting worried about us leaving.

The good news is that
this is very effective.

It is really, really very effective.

It takes some dedication and time, it
does, but We can help many, many that.

Anke: I think the, the, the tiny steps,
I mean, that's something that, that I got

to understand in a, like in a different
context, was basically teaching one of

the dogs, like it was to stay, right?

And I followed some instructions and it
was like really frustrating for everyone.

And, um, and then later I
found like a different way,

it was explained differently.

And I got to see that I had really
like lumped about 10 steps into one.

Thinking.

See, the thing is, I didn't go in with
this idea of, oh, let me just give

my dog a real horrible time here, you
know, by just making him jump ahead.

like 10 steps.

I thought I was taking tiny steps.

I think that's probably
often the problem comes.

You think you're taking small
steps, but for the dog it's not.

Rosee: No, it isn't.

And, um, yeah, I said it before,
but I can't really say it.

Say that this is a serious welfare issue
and I really, really make a plea for

people getting a professional to show
them how to do it because after four,

eight, eight weeks, depending on, you
know, the severity of the case, you'll

be able to then continue the work on
your own, but, or with, you know, perhaps

slightly less, um, support if you want
to, but definitely learn how to do it.

Anke: That makes, I mean, I think it
also like takes a lot of pressure off

because, you know, you saying, hey, look,
it's almost like, like, it feels like

if I go, if I listen to this, you know,
through the lens of, okay, I was that

dog parent with the dog, you know, where
you kind of feel guilty already, right?

So now you kind of have the sense, well,
you should know how to fix it, right?

So now you coming in saying, well, look,
this is actually more complex than that.

than it is, than it seems, so you're not
kind of failing your dog by hitting a

wall, to say like, no, do get professional
help, because it can be learned,

but probably not from a book, right?

Rosee: Exactly that, really.

There are not that many.

There's several hundred professionals
specialised in this in the world.

And we all work online because it
is the one area of dog work which

actually functions better online.

then because it is based on observation.

You have to be able to, um, my,
my clients learn to be the experts

in their dog's body language.

They're learning to read the tiniest,
tiniest signs of anxiety or when the

dog's even just beginning to think, oh,
I don't know, I don't really like that.

That can be kind of, you know, Just blink,
blinking more, or showing a bit of white

in the eye, what we call whale eye, or
lip licking, or very subtle signs where

a dog might start to scratch a bit, um,
or even sort of groom a bit, sort of self

soothing behaviors, things like that.

And once they know what, what the
repertoire is that the dog, uh, uses,

then they are very well equipped to
be able to keep the dog always under

threshold, because that's what it's about.

We don't want to Tip the dog
into another fear episode.

Because we know more now about
how this works neurologically.

Um, we don't want to be We're trying
to build new pathways, you know.

The default mode of the dog is, um,
if you go away, it's, I'm terrified.

But we can overlay this
with, with new pathways.

But it means always, we want to
Overlay it with pathways where the

dog's saying, Oh, I could do this.

I can do this.

That's fine by me that I can do this.

Right.

And so it's a bit counterintuitive at
first, but we have to practice what the

dog can do and not what the dog can't do.

Anke: I mean, it does.

It does.

It does make sense.

Right.

So it's like, yeah, you get
more of what you practice.

Right.

So you want to.

Yeah, that makes it makes
all the sense in the world.

Rosee: So, I love that.

I'm going to quote you to my lines.

You get more of what you practice.

I love that.

I'm going to write that down right now.

Anke: I've seen this.

I've seen this to be honest.

I got to see this in Australia when
I was at the golf driving range

and I saw these Japanese people
like practicing like crazy, but

like some really wonky like swing.

And I'm like, Ooh, like, you know, like
it doesn't matter how diligent you are

if you're practicing the wrong thing.

Right.

Rosee: True.

Sadly.

And that is also sad because people
come to me sometimes, they've spent a

lot of money and a lot of dedication.

Because really, people with separation
anxiety, dogs that I know, they're

so aware of the distress of their
dog and they are so dedicated, right?

And then it's really sad if they
have been misled by wrong advice.

I mean, that's,

Anke: that's probably, I think, one
of the biggest problems with this

is because yeah, I remember clearly
everybody has advice for you, you

know, to really differentiate which
advice to listen to and which, which

didn't like, is there, is there one
thing you think like, well, out of all

the things like this really don't do?

Rosee: Yeah, well, I, Um, definitely
don't ever let your dog cry out

because they will not learn to
feel safe by feeling unsafe.

That is just a complete no no.

That's really, don't ever trick your dog.

Some people, for example, and I
know very wonderful, wonderful dog

carers who have thought they can
help their dog by leaving secretly.

If their dog, they, they hope that
if the dog doesn't see them leave,

it will help them cope better.

But what the dog learns very
fast is they've been tricked and

they need to be very vigilant.

Uh, in that way, the dog becomes
hypervigilant to their every

movement in case their person
is going to disappear on them.

Yeah.

Anke: I mean, if you look at it,
like, because the problem is all

these approaches, you know, if the
assumption they're based on were

true, it would make a lot of sense.

But if the assumption underneath
is wrong, then you can really

cause a lot of harm there.

Rosee: Exactly, but we all do these
things, um, with the best interest

at heart, and sometimes they come
from, sadly, from, you know, Trainers

who are probably quite good at
other, in other areas, but they

haven't had a specialist training.

And all these things used to be
advised in the old, educated, before

there was any real knowledge about it.

That, um, yes, don't expect that
putting your dog in a crate is going to

teach them any kind of skills at all.

Um, there is a lot of, uh, great
movements you probably know too.

Try and educate people that this
is not a way to help your dog.

In a way, crates prevent your dog learning
how to live in your home, you know,

that they should feel safe everywhere.

That makes

Anke: sense.

Because I think at the end of the problem
with this whole topic of, like, if you

have a dog with separation anxiety,
the, like, Your dog suffers and you feel

like a prisoner in your house, right?

So, and I think knowing that there
is a way to actually address what's

really going on so you can get to a
point where, you know, your dog doesn't

mind staying alone and you can go out
without, you know, Feeling guilty or

feeling horrible, you know, I think
that is just such a such a game changer.

So if people want help and
like, you know, take it to your

advice and do want professional
help, where can they find yours?

Rosee: Okay, well, um, they, I have
a website called Separation Anxiety

Dog Training, which is quite a long,
long name, but that's very clear.

Yeah, I like to put on, you
know, what's on the tin is in the

tin, um, so they can contact me.

me there and make an appointment.

We can have a chat about
things, see if we're good fit.

And then I have various
different programs.

Um, and, um, I also speak German.

So these online programs, uh, I
can do, I do all over the world.

I have clients all over the world.

Um, and I speak English as you
can hear, but I also speak German.

So, um, I have a German website
as well called gooddogpractice.

eu, uh, if you don't feel you can
cope with the English website.

But however you get to me through
the, through my calendar, we can,

we can definitely help your dog.

Don't leave it any longer
than you, you need to.

Some people think, um, This is another
one that says, sort of, one of these

myths, I don't need to teach my dog
to stay on their own because I work

from home and I'm never out anyway.

This is not a good idea because this
fear will deepen neurologically,

in the background if you like.

I think every dog should have this skill.

They don't have to be left alone
for hours and hours and hours,

but they should feel safe.

We should enable them to feel safe.

I think it's a really important skill.

And I've noticed that If they do have
this skill, it often gives them more

confidence in other areas of their life.

Makes sense, yeah.

Anke: Actually, it's funny because I
always thought me working from home

actually made things harder for my dog
because there was no predictability.

Rosee: Yes,

Anke: yeah.

You know, because he never knew,
you know, he was like never alone.

I was there 24 7 like for days at a time,
you know, or I would take him wherever I

went and then all of a sudden like, you
know, where I think I always thought like

if I worked in an office and he did, mine
did get better when I started to go to

regular yoga classes and I remember the
first time I saw him when I grabbed that

yoga mat, I saw him jump on the couch.

Rosee: Yeah, yeah.

That's

Anke: where I knew.

So there was like, oh, we're
turning a corner here because he

recognized, okay, she takes that math.

That means after X amount
of time, she'll be back.

You know, and I'm thinking normally by
working at home, from home and having

like no real rhythm in a sense, you know,
regular rhythm, I always thought it made

it harder for him rather than better.

Rosee: No, absolutely.

And we can, we can teach dogs.

We just need to do it at their own pace.

Otherwise we're just making it worse.

And some dogs, like, like it sounds
like your dog, um, Yeah, that's,

that's another reason actually.

We talked about reasons
that, um, dogs have it.

Sometimes they just haven't learned
it and then they learn it quite

quickly, you know, because, um, dogs
like that tend to, we tend to say

they have, um, isolation, distress.

It's just that they have not yet used
to being on a, but there are dogs and

my, my, Stevie, my greyhound was one of
these who had actual separation anxiety,

which is strictly speaking the fear,
It's also, it does exist in humans as

well and children and the fear of being
separated from a particular person.

That is a bit tougher still when it
comes to being a prisoner in your

own home because you can't even, I
couldn't even leave him with people

that he knew, although he loved people.

But I was the first person
who'd ever taken care of him.

You know, he'd come from the racetrack.

We don't know exactly how he had been
kept before he came to the rescue,

but sometimes they're kept in cages or
in, you know, um, kennels and stuff.

They don't have much human interaction,
so it's Very natural when a rescue comes

to you that they're going to need time to
feel secure and build up their bond first.

Yeah.

So a lot of people sort of, I
said, my, my rescue dog, if it has

separation anxiety, I said, well,
how long have they been with you?

Three days.

Well, yeah, you know, uh, that
takes a little bit of time.

But one thing that if you do have
a dog, like, like Stevie, who,

uh, couldn't, It only was, you
know, very fixed, fixated on me.

Um, there is something you can do before
you even start on the desensitizing

the door and doing departures.

And that is something we
call spreading the love.

And that is, um, very gradually building
up positive associations with being with

another person or being in a relationship.

And later, maybe two or three different
people, but you have to do this so

slowly because we always have to
remember this is a safety issue.

The dog has to feel safe, you know?

Yeah,

Anke: I love that.

A safety issue.

That's just Yeah, that's just beautiful.

I'll just wrap it up.

So, because we could kind of talk forever
and I'll definitely want you back.

Rosee: So,

Anke: yeah, well, thank you so much.

I think we've told people where
to go and like really the core

message, like, it's not your fault.

There is help available.

Go get it.

Link in the comments below, link in
the, you know, in the show notes.

And if you watch the video,
it's just above or below.

So do get in touch and, you know, make
sure you and your dog have a better time.

Rosee: Definitely.

Thank you so much, Anke.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.