Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm Uncle Herrmann and I'm your host.

I talk to wholesome humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome Stephanie.

I'm like super excited to have you here.

Stephanie: Me too.

Thank you for having me.

Anke: Well, I actually, you
know, saw a post of yours and I.

P and say, Hey, I want you on
the show and you, I'm excited.

So let people know where are
you in this lovely world?

And you know, what's your
business with dogs and why did IP.

Stephanie: Um, so I am in Alberta, Canada.

Uh, my business is Happy House Dog
Training, so I'm the trainer and owner.

It's just a one person company.

Um, I also put a lot of tutorials
online, so I feel like I'm, I'm best

known through the YouTube world, but
you pounced on me because I think you

saw an announcement that I wrote a book,

Anke: so I did indeed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, tell us about, tell us
about the book or the topic of the book.

Stephanie: So it's, um,
inspired by my own dog, Nera.

Uh, she was 10 when I wrote at
11 now, but when she was younger,

she was a, I politely say she
was a menace with animals.

Like if it moved, she chased everything.

So it was squirrels, cats, like
my hair, garbage, anything.

If it moved, she had to go
get it and it was, it was an

interesting experience for me.

Um, I don't know if you wanna go into
sort of back history, but I actually

grew up, my mom was a dog trainer.

But in the compulsion side, so using
a lot of very heavy corrections.

And that was sort of
what I grew up knowing.

But I didn't wanna do
that with my own dog.

So this book is the process that I
came up with to train her prey drive

and to stop chasing animals, but
completely with reward-based training.

So, wow.

Anke: I think this is like anybody
with a dog, with, you know, with a, a

chaser dog is going like, oh my God.

Like, tell me more.

Tell me more.

You.

Like, what breeds your dog?

Because if I look at Chase, I was
like, oh, this is like some Aussie

sheep dog or something like, you
know, is it also, are there breeds

that are more prone to chasing?

Definitely.

And um, you know, what did you do with,
like, how did you come up with the method?

Like how did that evolve?

Stephanie: Yeah, so, um, my, my own
dog, she's a corky cattle dog, so

two herding breeds mixed into one.

I, I joke that as a puppy, her name
was, leave it because I was constantly

being like, leave that alone.

Leave that alone.

Like, and it's one of those things
too where you know her chasing it in.

It's completely fair.

We bred dogs like especially herding
breeds to go after the animals that

they see so they can motivate and move
livestock like she, she's bred for

this, but in my, uh, my tiny condo in
the city, it wasn't an ideal behavior.

So that's why I always joke is
like, you know, understand why

your dog acts the way they do.

And I think that's why we also
need to train it kindly because.

We asked our dogs to act like
this back in the day, throughout

history, it's really helped us.

But nowadays, especially with most of my
clients living in a large city like we

now deem it a very undesirable behavior.

Anke: Yeah, that's, I
mean, that's so true.

And I mean, do you even think it's
fair to bring, like, I'm laughing.

Where do you suggest somebody starts?

You know, like if I have a dog who goes,
you know, I have one she likes kind of.

She is lovely with everyone.

As long as you're not a cat.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Yeah.

I had a cat at home at the time
too, so that was also not ideal.

Yeah.

Anke: So you knew.

That you didn't wanna
do it your mom's way.

Right.

So what was the evolution of like, what
did you try first and where do, where,

where was the first time that you go, oh,
here's something else that might work.

Stephanie: So interesting.

Like, I had a dog before
Nera, he was a rescue.

Um.

The shelter was actually gonna euthanize
him 'cause he just had ex, they

call it extreme behavioral concerns.

Like he wasn't fit for a home.

But I took him on and I found
it very, very interesting.

Like he had separation
anxiety and resource guardian.

He was leash reactive.

Like pretty much if there's the checklist
of every behavior you can have, he had it.

And that was my first
experience of not wanting to use

corrections to change anything.

'cause I just, I loved
that little dog so much.

So he was kind of my first experience.

Finding out that there was even other
things, Zach George was my first

kind of experience into the forestry
world, and then it went from there.

But just realizing that yeah, you actually
can change behavior by giving a dog

something that they want, like treats.

And I think I had to realize, I.

The example I often give, and I hope it
doesn't come across as rude, but I always

say like, if you don't use something
properly, you can't expect it to work.

So the analogy I often give is like, if
you're holding a vacuum upside down, you

can't expect it to clean your floors.

And as somebody that started off in
the correction base world, I think I.

The way that you usually do it is
you set the dog up to fail so that

there's something to correct, right?

Like that's sort of the
old school way of training.

Force free or rewards-based training
has to be the exact opposite where

you're setting the dog up to succeed
so that you can reward that behavior

and then progress from there.

But if you immediately put a dog
into a situation they can't handle.

It's gonna fail, and it's not the method
that's failing, it's to the handler.

So that's so,

Anke: that's so true.

But actually that brings up a really
interesting, uh, point because, uh,

I don't try to indulge in the endless
arguments between dog trainers, you

know, but there is always like the
biggest pushback that I see that,

you know, force free methods get.

Yeah, but that doesn't work
with a real tough case, right?

Yeah.

And I think the, I mean, most of the time
I think they refer more to aggressive

kind of behavior, but, but the chasing
is a pretty tough one, you know?

I think.

Yeah.

So it's so instinctual for them.

Yeah.

So I mean, how does one, you know, if
I'm now just even like imagining mine go

off the cat, like where do I even start?

Stephanie: Yeah, so I was, for my
program, like the three things, I

say there's three components and you
have to use all three if you want.

Success is the first one.

So management, preventing the behavior.

So I had a cat at home when I was, when
I was doing this training, and so I was

using things like baby gates or closing
doors, just so she can't rehearse that fun

behavior of going after the cat because.

We can talk more about like the pre dry
sequence, but when they actually get

to chase, and especially if they get to
catch that animal, it's so rewarding.

Like there's like a huge chemical
cocktail that gets released

that feels so good for the dog.

But if we're talking about positive
reinforcement, like that behavior.

They rewarded themselves heavily.

So I always tell people like the first
thing if you want success is you have

to find ways to stop that behavior.

Um, there's a lot of off leash parks here.

I would take her to when she was a puppy.

We stopped temporarily going to those
and just doing all leash walks instead.

Stuff like that.

And then we can go more into like
depth about the training system.

But again, it's that concept of like
starting where your dog can be successful,

building up a huge reward history,
and then making it harder and harder.

So my dog now can be two feet
from a running squirrel and.

Nothing like it's, but if you start
trying to train there, you're gonna fail.

And then I also suggest, um,
replacement outlets is what I call it.

Some people would call it enrichment.

It's kind of universal.

But if you're gonna take away something
that a dog instinctually does, you two

have to satisfy that behavior elsewhere.

Like you can't expect your dog.

To not be a dog.

You have to find ways to set them up where
they always say like, let your dog be a

little wolf for 10 to 20 minutes a day,
and they're gonna be so much happier.

And a lot of people, I think, worry
that if you offer games and toys

that kind of mimic that predatory
behavior, you're gonna make it worse.

But I always say it's like a pre drive
battery, where the more you offer

outlets for it, the less need they
have with real animals like squirrels.

Anke: That's interesting because I
actually, um, years ago I came across

natural dog training with Kevin Behan.

I don't know whether you, you know,
he's in the us but anyway, he like, very

similar to you, like his dad was a dog
trainer, you know, very much like the

military or the, like police dogs and,
you know, aversive like the, the kind

of stuff that they did in the fifties.

Right.

And so he.

There's something wrong here.

Wrong, you know, there's something
that theory doesn't add up, right?

So, and he developed his method, which
was very much based around the pre drive.

He always called it it's ener
emotion, energy in motion.

And so when I had this one first, like the
thing that he always said, like, you need

to give him something to bite into, right?

Yes.

And so it was literally
that, it's almost, it's that.

I got it right.

And to this day, I don't carry even treats
on the walk I carry, um, like a rope toy?

Yeah.

You know, with a big knot in it.

So when she sees a cat and she
knows now, she kind of looks at the.

And then she looks and, and
then she bites into the thing.

So she gets her, she gets
her reward in a sense.

Like she gets the outlet biting
in that, in that thing, you know,

and that's worked really well.

And that kind of feels like it's
going in that same direction

that you are talking about.

Right.

It makes a lot of sense to me.

Yeah.

With that experience.

Yeah.

Stephanie: Yeah.

I think I've been, like, we talked about
rewards based training and like the, the

stereotypical way is treats and like I do.

Typically, eventually use those.

But one thing I talk about in the book
is um, I call it functional rewards.

I've heard different terms, but
it's basically anything that meets

the dog's needs, but also gives
them what they want in that moment.

And the example I often give, 'cause
I think it's easiest to understand, is

like if it was a really hot summer day
and you're walking your dog next to a

river and you wanted to call them back
to you, like that dry treat that you

have in your pocket is not gonna be what
they want compared to like going and

drinking in the water, going for a swim.

So if you can use the release
into that river as the reward, I.

That's a functional reward,
and it's exactly what you

just described with a toy.

So same thing like I found there was
like I could bring steak on the walk

when my dog was a puppy and like she's
still gonna choose a squirrel even

when I'm doing the training correctly.

But once I started bringing a fur toy, so
she actually got to use those instincts

on something that she kind of got
that little taste of what she actually

wanted, which is to hunt an animal.

So.

Anke: I love that, that
makes so much sense.

You know?

Yeah.

And so how, how, how slow is slow
enough with this, because I think a big

temptation for people is always like to
sort of skip ahead, you know, how, how

slow would that, like what, how long
does it normally take to get a chaser to,

to, you know, learn something different?

Stephanie: Yeah, I think it's always
such a hard question to answer

'cause it really depends on the dog.

And I also often find like the severity
of the behavior doesn't necessarily

equate to how long it really takes.

Like I had one sight hound, um,
client, they hired me and their

dog was indoor chasing their cat.

And like, if caught was not being kind
like it was, it was really concerning.

But that dog took a
week and a half like it.

Completely stop chasing the
cat in a week and a half.

That is not the normal, right?

So like that was an extreme
version of the behavior.

But as soon as the dog
got it, it just got it.

My own dog took a few months.

So I would say like give yourself two
or three months to really expect a lot.

And like kind of it's your dog is
gonna determine the pace, right?

Not you

Anke: that, yeah, that
makes so much sense.

But I think even the hope, even
knowing that it's possible.

You know?

Yeah.

'cause I think how often will
people just go, oh, well that's

my, that's just like nature.

Like that's just how it is
and I'm just gonna, you.

Stephanie: I think that's part of
why I wrote the book is I feel like

it is one of those behaviors that is
genuinely concerning for people, right?

Like if you're a dog, chases a
squirrel across a busy road, there's

a huge risk of injury for that dog.

Like there's real
consequences to the behavior.

So a lot of people will start to think,
well, if there's no other way, it's.

Better to use painful corrections
than have a dog potentially

get hit by a car or whatever.

And I just wanted to explain that
there's a very, very viable, effective

other option and it's, it's really
kind and like the training's fun.

I think that's the other thing is I found
a lot of people that once they start on

the program, it gets such a good time
that you're having with your dog that

you stop thinking like, okay, is it gonna
take three weeks or is it gonna take four?

Right?

Like you just actually
enjoy the process and Yeah.

Anke: So, and also like.

That's actually, that just
reminds me like, yeah, Mr.

Layer was like a little
rodent hunter, you know?

So when he was like out in the
mountains, I, I actually then ended

up not letting him off in the woods
anymore because he would be like

that, like you could yell after him.

You could really notice
like he was on a hunt now.

Like I was no longer in his world.

I could just.

Yell my little heart out and
he wouldn't even register.

So yeah, totally.

Now what I'm curious about is, so you
just said something, you said like, oh,

and then he got it right and he got it.

So is that typical that like, once they
kind of understand that, oh no, this

little rabbit is not for me, or is this
something that needs to be practiced

or, or kind of like maintained, like,
you know, like a language, like if you

don't use it, lose it kind of thing?

Or is it once you get it, you get it?

Stephanie: So I always say like, I need
a really difficult skill like this.

Once they get it.

So like there's three
phases for the training.

The way that I teach it, the first
one, you're immediately queuing

the dog, like you're telling
them to leave that animal alone.

The next one you're letting them
watch for a little bit, but then

again telling them what to do.

And then the third one is actually
that voluntary disengagement part

where that's what I find almost
everybody, including myself, wants

to get to where they don't have to
constantly tell their dog what to do.

Like the dog can swap the squirrel.

Without your you intervening at
all, they still never go after it.

I still encourage rewarding that
every single time it happens

just to keep the behavior strong.

But yeah, typically once they get it, like
a lot of people stay in that phase three.

There can sometimes be, I guess, a few
animals that trigger your dog more.

Um, like we, there's a, it's called
Elk Island here, and there's a

bunch of bison that are out there.

My dog hadn't seen one for like
three years, so when she was first

looking at that, I think it was so.

Unique and interesting to her that she was
like, and it starts creeping towards it.

So in that case then you go back and like
cue her to leave it and there's no issue.

So I always say like, you'll
still have that cue for life as

that emergency if you need it.

But yeah, most people, once their dog
gets it, you don't have to ask for the

behavior anymore, which is so nice.

'cause yeah.

Um, yeah, I don't know if you
where you are, but I, I do a

lot of hiking with my dog and.

Preferably off leash if I can let her.

So, and it's Canadian Rockies.

There's some pretty big cliffs that
would be quite dangerous if she ran

off the side and chased her rodent.

So that's my goal is to get to the
point where like no matter what we

see on that hike, she's gonna leave
it alone without me, me having to

notice it at the same time as her.

Anke: See that's the piece, like it is
almost like, you know, for the dog not

having to remind, that's one thing.

But it's also what you just said,
like, oh, I don't have to notice this.

Notice it first.

Stephanie: Yeah, it's, you know,
because it's, it's exhausting to

constantly be scanning for squirrels and
rabbits and deer and all those things.

Like, you know, you kind of feel
like you have to like, yeah.

Find it before your dog does.

And it's pretty hard to enjoy a walk or
a hike if you're on edge the whole time.

So if I do notice, like on a hike or
walk, now that my dog sees a squirrel

and completely lose it alone, I'll
still mark and reward that behavior.

'cause I want her to still
continue to remember like.

That's great.

Thank you.

But I, I, I don't have to
tell her what to do anymore.

Anke: Yeah.

Wow.

That's, I mean, that,
that seems like such a.

Wish come true.

You know, like if you have, especially
when you're like, yeah, when you

have a dog that really where you
like, I'm just thinking, oh God, Leo.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, like how many times on
a hike that I wouldn't let him off

eat because I knew well there is
like little things crawling around

and he'd be after them, you know?

And I, yeah.

Yeah.

So it would, it really
makes the difference.

You know, and so you were, you,
obviously we've chatted before, but what

what really struck me was, you know,
obviously you, you kind of discovered

it on your own dog that you try with a
whole bunch of clients', dogs, and now

that somebody can actually buy the book
and doesn't actually need your input.

Like you can, like the book is clear
enough for people to follow the steps

and actually, you know, have a go.

Themselves and a good chance of
actually figuring out this out.

How Yeah.

Did you managed to do, that's
this such difficult task?

Stephanie: This book is like a decade in
the making because my own dolly trainer

about a decade ago and the same thing.

And then I've worked with a lot of
one-on-one private clients where, you

know, coaching them in person through
the program seen it be successful.

So it gave me a lot of confidence
that it wasn't just my, my

one-off experience with my dog.

Like I've worked with Sighthounds,
I've worked with terriers, a

lot of like those stereotypical.

And it's been successful across the board.

Um, but that was still kind of in my
brain of like, well, I'm still there.

Queuing the human and
helping them privately.

How do you make this into something
that people can just follow at home?

So about a year ago, I released
a digital version of the guide,

sort of as a tester to see that.

Completely without me helping them at all.

How successful is it for people at home?

And it's been really cool getting
videos from people that like this.

This one person sent me a video and she
was crying because there was a, I think it

was a squirrel or a cat, I can't remember,
but across the road from her dog and

her dog looked at it and this dog was.

Terrible before, like instantly went
after everything and just ignored it.

Looked back at her for the
reward and like continued on

the walk and she was like, wow.

So that was when I was like, oh, okay,
this actually really works without

me being there, coaching people
one-on-one and now it's in a print

book, which I'm very excited about.

So.

I think's very cool.

It's a little bit of a different format.

Like I have a lot of picture examples
and stuff in there, and then I

myself am a huge visual learner.

Like, can, I can hear people talk
about it and I can read text and

kind of get some gist of it, but
I really need to see it happen.

So yeah.

The, um, there's also video links
for all the training steps so that

you can actually watch a dog doing
it and make sure that, you know,

you at home are doing it correctly.

Anke: Yeah, because I think that's,
as you said before, right, you know,

it's, it's important to do it right.

You know, so I would
imagine like timing matters.

Speed matters very much.

Distance matters, and that's
like really hard to describe.

So the videos are really, really
making a mu like a huge difference.

Stephanie: Yeah.

And then there's so many other extra
factors, like, you know, if there's

a bunny just kind of hanging out,
eating grass versus a bunny that's

running, like, those are two very
different triggers, levels for your dog.

So learning how to factor that into
your training and stuff like that.

Anke: Yeah, I mean.

I'm just thinking like, yeah, I've
got a, we've got a cat over here.

And so she would, she actually
uses my car to get onto the

wall where she like, you know.

Yep.

See you.

Uh, you know, like, do you find people
have accidents in the sense where their

dog actually catches whatever it is,
is, I mean, does that happen often

in the training or is pretty well.

Stephanie: No.

So I do suggest always like during
the training, keeping your dog on

leash to prevent that from happening.

'cause again, especially if they
get to the, in the predatory

sequence, the chasing is part of it.

But if they actually
get to do the grab bite.

Preferably not kill by like the whole
dissect that, you know, the gross

part that we think about, if they
actually get to finish that sweet

sequence, it's even more rewarding
than just the chasing itself.

So if your dog actually ends up
grabbing that animal that it's

chasing, that's much more rewarding.

And again, like you're, you need
to prevent that while you're

training the new behavior behaviors.

I would say there's management,
which is prevent the old undesirable.

And there's training where
you're building new, desirable

this in order for it to work.

You need to add management and um,
it's kind of like an analogy I often

give as a joke, but if you were trying
to eat less cookies, like not having

them sitting on your kitchen counter
is gonna be much more successful.

Right.

Than like easy access.

So thinking about that for your dog too, I
mean, we often equate them to like toddler

brains in terms of their mental capacity.

Like they really need a break from
rehearsing that old undesirable behavior

while they try to learn something new.

It's hard for 'em to do
both at the same time.

Anke: Yeah.

I mean, you know.

Like we are too.

Right?

It's not really that different.

So

Stephanie: yeah, like for
habit building, right?

Like you, we, we really, really need to
be sometimes taken outta that context

where, yeah, we'll say unsuccessful.

Anke: Yeah, no.

I mean if you look at the cookie
example, you know, like your first

step is stop running, buying them.

Right?

You know, if you don't have that of
them in the house, like, you know,

that's much easier managed than if
you have the cookie jar right here.

So where can people go and get the book
and um, you know, find out more about

you and your work and connect with you?

Yeah.

Stephanie: So different place.

So I'd say like my website's
Happy Hounds dog training.ca.

Um, although links are there,
that might be the easiest.

Um, they also have links on my
YouTube channel, so that one's

Happy Hounds dog training as well.

And then also right now the
print book's available on Amazon.

Um, I am in the work, so trying to
get it through more distributors,

but Amazon, unsurprisingly is
just the fastest to set up.

So currently that's the only spot.

It's for sale, but there
will be more as well.

Anke: Awesome.

Well, that's, I'm gonna just go get it.

I like hope it's available in Spain
already because sometimes it, it, like

that takes a while to trickle around.

But, um, yeah, I've

Stephanie: seen a few places, like,
I think Australia's still pending and

there's a few countries, but it's,
it's, it's making its way worldwide

now, which is really exciting actually.

Anke: I love it.

I love it.

And it's such a, yeah, it's such a big
problem for so many people, you know?

And so many dogs are having less freedom
or less independence because you know,

if we can't trust them not to go after,
you know, whatever, across the street

or whatever, then, then it just makes
everybody's world so much smaller.

So thank you for writing the
book, and thank you for coming

on the show to talk about it.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks so much for listening.

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Email me at Anke.

That's a NKE at Soul touched by dogs.com.