Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Suzanne.

We've just been having the most
delightful conversation and I

just, I'm really excited to include
listeners into it, into the rest of it.

So, why don't we start, let
people know where you're based and

what's your business with dogs?

Suzanne: All right, so I am in
currently snowy upstate New York.

As late in the season as it is, we just
had a beautiful five inches of snow

and a little bit more coming today.

So upstate New York, we always,
we always make that distinction.

It's upstate New York.

So people don't think that
we're talking about Manhattan.

So this is farm country.

Um, it's all dairy country and
it's, set along the Mohawk River.

Beautiful quiet place to And we've
got a working farm up here with cows,

horses, donkeys, pigs, chickens,
cats, parrots, lots of dogs, of

course, and Scottish Highland cattle.

So, we, um, stay busy, let's say that, and
you might hear the parrots join us, and

if so, I apologize, but we've gotta go.

Umbrella Cockatoo, an
Amazon, and a Scarlet Macaw.

And, um, when they decide to join us
and help, it can get a little noisy.

So hopefully all will be well.

Anke: That's, that's perfect.

You know, and the thing is
like, this is a doggy podcast.

You know, animals, like, you know, yeah,
I can't, I couldn't possibly say, no, no,

we don't want the birds to chirp, right?

No, no.

Or, you know, like any animal
is always welcome for sure.

Suzanne: And I went to a radio interview
and I wasn't really listening and the

Amazon was doing his little happy thing
in the background and finally the reporter

said, do you need to go take care of that?

Is something wrong?

And I was like, no, no,
everything seems to be fine.

You know, finally she said, but your
baby, I was like, my baby, I was like,

you know, my baby's 37 years old.

And And, um, and then I got annoyed
because I thought, well, if that

was my baby crying, don't you
think I would go take care of it?

Like, you know, that you would have
to remind me maybe baby's crying.

I was like, no, that's, that's my parrot.

She's like, okay.

So you asked, what do I do as dogs?

So I am a full time professional trainer.

And at this point, I don't have a
training school per se anymore, but

I train trainers, and then I teach
educational courses online and, uh,

before COVID hit, I traveled all over
the world teaching in person seminars

and working with people, um, and trying
to Trying to produce materials that help

people find better ways to build really
healthy relationships with their dogs.

So it's not, here's how to make a
perfect sit, or here's how to have, you

know, high scoring healing, um, but it
really goes to the foundation of this

interaction between you and an animal.

How, how do we make that
satisfying and fair for both ends?

Anke: I love that.

I think, I mean, it's, it's what
I stumbled across you online.

I was like, Oh my God, like, I just love
the focus on the relationship because

I feel like without that, everything
else is sort of fragile on the surface.

Suzanne: That is a
really, really good word.

It's fragile.

And, and so when people bring me
problems, what I'm looking for

is I go to the foundation level.

I don't, I don't want as a trainer, I've
been in the business a very long time.

I'm 65 and I've been a professional
with animals since 1977.

So a long time.

And I know the band aids,
my dog's doing this.

How do I make him not do that?

How do I get him to do this?

But I kept finding that as long as I
stayed on that very fragile, superficial

level, it was like the, you know, they
call it the whack a mole game, right?

So you hit down one thing and
it pops up someplace else.

And I started to think this
is not fixing anything.

We're just covering this up, but we need
to go to the foundation and fix that.

So everything I do is, has increasingly,
the older I get gone deeper and

deeper to build a solid foundation.

So that we're not, we're not building
something that's fragile, we're building

something that's strong that can withstand
what life is going to hand everybody.

Um, and then on top of them, we decide
what we want to build on that foundation.

Anke: Love that.

So how would you describe, if I have
a really strong, grounded relationship

with my dog, what does that look like?

Suzanne: I think it's, it's a
two way street, first of all.

We spend a lot of time talking, you know,
it's, it's, it's the quote from, you

know, Winnie the Pooh, you know, a lot
of people talk to animals, but very few

listen, um, so that a lot of training
is about, Hey dog, Hey horse, I'm going

to, I'm going to tell you what you need
to know and what you need to do and what

you should do and what you shouldn't do.

For me, a relationship is number one.

I'm intensely curious about that
other being, whether that's my

husband or a new friend or, uh, A
horse I just met or yeah, uh, you

know, the, the dog laying at my feet.

I'm intensely curious about who are you?

How do you process the world?

How do you see the world?

What do you like to do?

You know, how in our interactions.

What's, what's good for you?

So it's a two way street
of great curiosity.

The animal's not interested in me.

We don't have a relationship.

Um, but then I have to also, it, it's
kind of the old joke, I know that you

know that I know that you know that I
know that you know that feedback loop has

to be clean and respectful so that if I
said something to you and you're like,

well, I don't actually find that funny.

And I'm like, well, too bad.

I think it's a star.

Um, we probably wouldn't
have much of a relationship.

There's, we do this with humans
all the time, where we actually

communicate to someone like,
that's not funny for me, right?

I don't find that, I don't feel safe here.

And we're like, too bad,
suck it up, buttercup.

And when we do that with animals,
we have the power to do that with

animals, because we control their being.

We can control their food, where
they go, how much freedom they have.

We can even deprive them
of water if we want.

We tell them when they
can go to the bathroom.

Um, and if I did that to a human, that
would be called taking someone hostage.

And we know what happens if
you take someone hostage.

They, they can learn to love you
because they're so dependent on you.

But I don't want that.

So a relationship for me that's
healthy, I is not dependent on, I

will give you your needs and I will
deprive you if you don't comply.

Your needs will be met.

I am not dependent on
equipment to hold you to me.

You know, if I said, I've got a friend
and I lock her in the basement, cause

you know, she might talk to someone else.

Um, but she's really, she's
really a very cool friend.

Um, there's an article on my website
called Of Hostages and Relationships.

Cause some of the training says that.

Don't, don't let your
dog talk to other people.

Never let anything good
come from someone else.

I'm like, why?

That's like saying no one can make my
husband laugh or, you know, take him

out and have a nice outing with him.

Cause then he'll come
home and he won't want me.

It's like, it's insane.

Um, so it has to be a two way street
for sure, with respect for who they are.

And, and in this unbalanced human animal
situation, We have to be cognizant

of how much power we have in that
relationship to control their lives.

And that is never to be taken,
uh, lightly by any means.

Anke: That's so true.

I mean, you just make me laugh.

Like when you take this, these scenarios
that are so common in the, you know, human

dog and you take that into, you do that
to a friend, it's like, oh, it just like

really shows so beautifully how Yeah.

Suzanne: And same thing with, you
know, it's like using, whether we're

using punishment or we're using
food rewards, you know, or toys.

If someone said, Oh
yeah, my wife loves me.

You know, I lock her in the, in
the closet when I leave home.

But when I come back, I play with her a
lot and I bring her her favorite foods

and, you know, I give her lots of little
tidbits and we just have so much fun.

You're like, wait, you lock her?

What?

Say what?

Oh, she loves this game,
so we play this game a lot.

It's like, yeah, but does she ever get to
go out and just do what she wants to do?

It's like, well, no, I
mean, you know, God forbid.

Or, you know, my kid loves
me because I pay them a lot.

They're afraid of spiders, but I keep
handing them, you know, 5 bills, and

it's like, come on, kid, what's it
going to take to touch the spider?

But this is what we do with animals.

We have transactions.

And we think they're relationships.

They are not one and the same.

Anke: So actually, I'm just thinking
it's really an interesting one

because, uh, when I host an event or
class or summit, I always ask people,

so what would you love, you know,
what would you love to learn about?

You know, questions do you have?

And by the questions, you can always tell
and the questions are always, how can I?

Make my dog stop doing something.

So that's usually either,
how can I get them to relax?

You know, when strangers come
to the house, when other people,

when we meet other people with
a lot of dogs in the street.

I mean, there's some really funny,
funny ones sometimes what people share.

It's like, but, um, it's most of the
time, how can I, you know, what can

I do to to get them to stop doing
the thing, whatever the thing is.

So, so what would you say to somebody
when they come to you and say, can you

help me, you know, make like, like, what
can I do to get my dog to stop barking at

other dogs when they come in the street?

Suzanne: I usually, I usually try
to step them into a place where they

can see that there's a reason for
the dog doing it, and it's rarely

directed personally at them, right?

Um, and that one's hard because
there's, there's woven into our,

our western culture at least, this
understanding that an animal is, is

flipping himself, or they're, they're
trying to be alpha, or they're trying

to, You know, get away with something.

And it's like, they're not
trying to get away with anything.

You know, why my, if we make this into
a friend, so I use human parallels

on not a lot, not because I think
dogs or horses are people, but just

that they're both social species.

And we already know more about,
about relationships because

of our human experience.

So if, you know, if I was walking
down the street with you and it's

like, well, whenever Annika and I go
to the festival, she always yells.

at, you know, all the
men wearing straw hats.

And, and how do I stop
her from doing that?

A sane response would be, well, is
she afraid of men in, in straw hats?

Like, why would she do that?

She has to have a reason.

We would not leap to assuming you
were trying to run the world or get

away with things or embarrass me.

Um, I would be like, well, why?

The, the understanding that
there's a behavior underneath it.

And also, are there some warning signs?

So if we see a big sign, for example, that
says Men With Straw Hat Festival, and I

think yes, I'm going to take Anke to that.

Because you know how she
loves Men With Straw Hats.

And then I report to my friend, like
I took her, and then all she did

was yell at Men With Straw Hats.

And my friend would say, but you
knew she was going to do that,

why did you take her there?

Or the other analogy I always give
is, you know, I'm in a car and I, when

I'm driving 80 miles an hour and the
headlights don't work and the brakes

are failing and the tires are bald
and I don't really know the road or

where I'm going, I crash into trees.

How do I stop that from happening?

It's like, well, let's, let's,
let's unpack that scenario.

Um, so maybe there were some
things we could have done.

And so helping them understand that the
dog is not just suddenly, from their point

of view, they see it as he was fine and
now he's barking at strangers, right?

Versus let's back it up.

How does he look when he's home?

Where does he go from he doesn't
do that at home to he does it here?

Okay, somewhere between here and
there he's making the change.

What does that look like?

Getting them to to back up and say
there's a reason for the behavior.

It could just be boredom.

It could be because they're afraid.

It could be because they're so excited
by men in straw hats because that

looks just like your your dad and you
haven't seen him in years and he's been

dead for 20 years and you're just so
excited oh my god that could be my dad.

Completely irrational he's dead but okay.

Um, there's so many reasons

and so getting them to step out
of the why's this started doing

this and I want him to stop.

I was like okay I understand
that but to solve it we have

to figure out what's happening.

You know, why did you crash,
you know, into the tree?

It's rarely because a tree
sprouted up in front of your car.

Very rare.

Anke: As trees sometimes do, right?

Suzanne: Yeah.

Yeah, you know, this oak
tree just, boom, right there.

Never saw it coming.

Uh huh.

Anke: Yeah, I love, I love the,
the approach with curiosity.

It feels to me there's curiosity and
like with a nose for problem solving.

Like, let's just sort of unpack what's
going on and try and figure out what's.

What's happening and say,
well, okay, does this happen?

And in the same, maybe the same
scenario or not, is it other hats

as well or just, you know, so
it's like trying to figure out.

What's actually going on that
makes, that makes so much sense.

Suzanne: And sometimes you can't figure
it out because we don't see things, you

know, it's, it's like the common report
is, you know, he went to the window and he

was barking and there was nothing there.

And I'm like, you need to finish
the sentence with, there was

nothing there that I could perceive.

So.

Considering how high they can hear and how
low they can hear, dogs must think, I, I

do love her, but she's just not terrible.

She doesn't even think sometimes.

Or saying, she couldn't even hear that,
like, she doesn't even smell anything.

Um.

And, you know, the same way we sometimes
wonder, like, how did you not see that?

And the guy's like, because
I don't see the way you do.

You know, I don't see
as acutely as you do.

I don't see as many details.

My vision is not as, um,
refined as a primate's vision.

But man, their ability to
hear and smell is phenomenal.

So they must think, all right, you
know, okay, poor little misguided puppy.

You're, you mean well, but
you're not too bright, are you?

That's actually an interesting

Anke: one, because I can totally,
actually, I have a, I have a Spanish

master who's actually also right there.

Um, and she will do that.

Like she will go out in the yard
and then she'll look quite, you

know, she takes her work seriously.

So she will go out,
especially in the evening.

Right.

And she'll go and, and
then she will market stuff.

Right.

And, and so sometimes you go like,
And you wonder, like, if we just

continue playing that, if she, if I
feel like, what are you barking at?

I can't see anything.

And I must say, I do make
a point to acknowledge, you

know, hey, you're helping, I'm
checking, we're good, you know.

But still, she would probably
think, well, but you don't.

And I think it's like, I mean, how could,
like, they're actually doing incredibly

well to even trust us with stuff.

Suzanne: Yeah, yeah, I think they, they,
they have conversations amongst themselves

about the, um, two leggeds that, you know,
sometimes they're not all that bright.

Sometimes they're magical.

I mean, sometimes they do stuff with
those thumbs that is pretty awesome,

but sometimes they're just not bright.

So I would tell people, I remember,
I would say, like, even if you

can't quite perceive it, and I
remember when I was a kid, you know

the ice and slush that builds up
under a car in the winter, right?

And it would fall off.

Whatever reason, in first grade I
decided these were dinosaur eggs.

And so I bring them to my mother and I
find them and I was like, look at this.

Oh my God.

I believe.

God bless my mother.

She didn't say, don't be stupid.

That's just ice and mud and some
grease from the bottom of a car.

And it's just going to melt.

She's like, well, what do
you think would happen?

I was like, I think I'm going
to keep them and hatch them.

Um, you know, and so I, you know, I
took my sister's little Barbie doll

case, threw out all the dolls, who
needs those, and put in my, my thing.

And I said, I'm taking
them for show and tell.

And she's like, And she said later, she's
like, I don't know how to tell this,

like, don't be stupid, they're just gonna
melt and it's just gonna be a giant mess.

She's like, are you sure
that's what you want to do?

I was like, yes.

Um, and so, you know, the real
experience, of course, showed me

that, that it was not a dinosaur egg.

It did melt by show and tell.

I just had a giant puddle
and the teacher was annoyed.

And I was like, hmm, okay, that
was a theory that didn't work out.

Exactly!

I'm like, all right, that was not
what I thought it was, note to self.

But I have taken that same approach.

to animals.

So when I can't see or smell or hear what
they're perceiving, I do them the courtesy

of going along with the dinosaur egg.

It's like, oh, so at one point we had
a bear in the neighborhood and so I was

walking my pony and all of a sudden the
pony's like, she stops and she's on full

alert and she's looking into the woods.

And it was like dusk.

I can't see.

Like, if there's a black bear
in the dark woods, until he

shows up, I'm not gonna see it.

So I could have just said, like,
stop it, we're walking, let's go,

leave it, don't worry about it, blah
blah blah, there's nothing there.

But I didn't.

So I oriented myself, and I was like,

and I tuned into the same
direction she did, and I got as

intense, and we both listened.

I had no idea what the
hell I was listening to.

I couldn't smell what she was smelling.

And I was hoping she wasn't
going to hit the panic of, You

know what we should do now?

We should run away really fast!

Because I wasn't going to be
able to keep up with her, right?

So I was just like,
Hmm, what do you think?

And I'd look at her and she'd
look at me and then we'd go

back to looking at the woods.

She had something she
was actually focused on.

I did not.

I was like, Okay, you let me know.

You think we can, are we
safe and we can walk away?

She's like, yeah.

And so I have told people for
years now, go join the dog.

So tonight when you go out and your, your
master's out there saying hmm, go out,

join her, orient yourself in the same way,
give it your full attention, sniff the

air, and I've had people say like, one
lady with a beagle, and what she said was,

as you're saying, How do I get at night?

He doesn't want to come out.

He just sits in the yard.

He won't come back in.

He's got his nose in the air.

And how do I make him get in the house?

I'm like, well, why don't
you go out and join him?

There's a reason he's sitting out there.

And she goes, oh, so I should just go
out in the backyard and stand next to my

dog and sniff the air like I'm a beagle.

I'm like, yep.

Um, I'm going to do that.

I'm going to

Anke: let you know because I can talk
like when, because when you just described

it's like, Oh, that's like, that would be
the, the essence of relationship building.

It's like, you know, like
appreciating them enough to take.

their experience, seriously, and not
just the Zoom, just because I can't

smell it, there's nothing there.

It's like, I was like, when
you were talking, I was like,

oh, I'm so gonna do that.

Suzanne: And that's,
that's what this woman did.

So she was just like in her sixties
and you know, she lived in, in suburb,

uh, suburban Chicago and she's like,
fine, I'm going to give that a try.

And then next day she came into the
seminar and I said, She goes, well,

he's out there doing his thing,
just, you know, his nose in the air.

And I called him and he wouldn't come.

Cause she's like, I offer him treats.

I'm like, that's not as
valuable to him as smelling.

Like, don't assume chicken and
cheese are the answer to life.

They're not the Holy Grail for dogs.

Um, and so she said, so I went,
all right, I said, I'd try it.

So I walked out there and I stood next to
him and, I sniffed, and if he moved his

head in a certain direction, I did it too.

And then I looked at him, he looked at
me, and I said, can you come in now?

And the dog said, sure.

And she just, she just was astonished.

Like, it worked.

And like, because you gave him
the respect of, I'm going to come

share the experience you're having
and now can you come with me?

Um, and another woman did it with cats
because lots and lots of feral cats

she lived in outside of San Francisco.

And she goes, it's just, I hate
taking my dog for a walk because

there's so many feral cats.

They're under the cars.

He's just hysterical, you know, and he's
just disconnects and nothing I do works.

I'm like, well, you're not
going to get rid of the cats.

So you might as well just
share the, the experience.

It's like, oh, so I should get down
and look under the cars with him.

I was like, Try it.

And it just blew her mind.

So he's got his nose stuck under a can.

She gets down.

She looks and sure enough,
there's a cat by the front tire.

And she's like, so there's a cat.

And the dog looks at her like, right,
like I've been trying to tell you.

You see it too, right?

She's like, yeah, that is a cat.

Good job.

Can we go on now?

The dog's like, okay.

He's like, what the hell?

I was like, it's very much like that, that
wonderful bit in, in The Little Prince.

Where he's drawing an elephant
inside a snake, right?

But he shows it to someone and
the adults think it's a hat.

But the author's like, Oh no,
that's clearly, you know, this

python that swallowed a snake.

But you have to have the
courtesy of not assuming your

perception is it, but sharing it.

So the animal's like, Oh, you're
a little brighter than I thought.

You do.

Hear that, right?

Because there's not a test.

They're not going to say prove
that you heard what I heard.

If your body language says, I'm also
having this moment, they believe you.

The one thing animals don't know about
is, is they don't know how to lie.

They know that people lie.

Anke: I would say you
can't trick a dog, right?

Well, you can,

Suzanne: but once.

Anke: Once, oh, yeah, no, I tried that.

Mrs.

Mastiff here, it was hilarious.

Like, she got into the bedroom
and I wanted her to come out.

And one day I tried, like I just sort
of kind of like fiddled with the bag

of something in the kitchen and she was
there, right, you know, and I got a treat.

I gave her something and
closed the bedroom door.

The next day she didn't react to that,
so I kind of came closer with the treat.

She came out, got the treat.

The third day she stayed in
there, looked at me, yeah.

You know, I've got
juice sussed out, right?

She wasn't having it, like, she did
not fall for anything more than once.

Suzanne: And we, and we do, we teach them
that we will lie to them, instead of,

so I would use the opposite approach.

We have a big container, I often use
cat kibble because it's little and

it really smells strong because cats
have stronger taste preferences, and

it just makes noise when I shake it.

So it's just a, it's just a conditioned
response, no more than like, you

know, when I was a kid, the ice
cream man, when he came to the

neighborhood, we'd hear that bell,
we're like, Oh, I gotta run home, get

my money so I can get an ice cream.

And so for the dogs, it's just
like that, that shake is a

promise that I will feed you.

You don't have to come, but I'm asking
you to, and I'm promising you that,

and I, I don't use it to lie to them.

You know, um, but I've had animals
that people had lied to them.

So they're like, no, no,
no, I know this trick.

This trick is all sweetness and light
until, um, so a couple, a couple of

animals in my barn I got when they
were older and people had lied to them.

One of our little donkeys, her daughter.

Her daughter, if you told Bliss that
people would lie to you and hurt you and

trick you, she would look at you like,
that's some kind of silly fairy tale.

No one would do that to a donkey.

Her mother's like, yes, they do.

Um, but most of the animals here
would say like, that's silly.

No one would lie to a dog, like
no one would do that to a dog.

You know, it's, it's the threat
we have when our dogs are bad.

I'm like, don't make me put on
one of those dog training movies.

I will put it on.

You'll have to see what other
dogs have to go through.

So I'm, I'm glad that the vast majority
of the animals that live here, if

you could actually tell them this
is what people do to animals, they

would think, no, that's not possible.

That's not possible.

Um, but yeah, if you've gotten dogs from
other sources, they may come with that

understanding that yeah, food is good,
but it's also a little set of handcuffs

you're about to try to get on me.

You know, you're, you're
trying to trick me.

You're trying to lie to me.

This is not an honest interaction.

And we teach dogs not to trust
us, or we teach them to trust

us, um, one way or the other.

But sometimes we're not, we're
not aware that we're doing it.

We think we're being kind, right?

As soon as people use food, they're
like, but I'm a positive trainer.

It's like, Not really.

I always tell people, go watch that
movie Indecent Proposal, you know, where

Redford says, will you sleep with me?

And, uh, and she's like, no.

And he goes, how about
for a million dollars?

And she's like, well, like, all
right, somewhere between those two

price points, zero and a million.

We have now pressured her into doing
something she would not have done, right?

That she would not have freely done.

So we always have to be careful when
we're, when we're training, or we're

trying to shape another being's behavior,
is that they do have freedom to choose.

That they're actually, you know,
as they say, if there's only one

right choice, that is called zero
degrees of freedom, that we have

to have multiple degrees of freedom
in these interactions with animals.

And that's at the cutting edge of
a lot of the zoo animal training.

How many degrees of freedom
are involved in this choice?

Because they're acutely aware, especially
in a zoo animal, an exotic animal,

how much they have abrogated the
species natural tendencies, the size

of their territory, their ability to,
you know, um, secure their own food.

They really are at the mercy
of the, of the keepers.

Um, but our dogs, sometimes
it's good to remember these are

happy, well fed hostages too.

Be very careful about that.

Anke: Yeah.

I love that.

I love that.

I think you're looking at
everything through that lens.

I'm And giving them that respect to
start with, to really try, I mean, even

if you can try and look at it through
there, but obviously we know we don't

have the same senses, but then to just
recognize, you know, if you have your

nose in the wind, it's because you
perceive something I can't, which means

like You know, I should listen to you
and not insist on you listening to me,

kind of, you know, I just love that.

Yeah, I think if a relationship is
based on that, like, well, yeah, then

nobody would be surprised if the horse
comes with you or the dog comes with

you because You know, we're the same.

If we feel really seen and heard, you
know, we feel drawn to that other being

and we trust them a lot more than if
you get some, you know, with random

demands, you know, some person who kind
of randomly enforces their, their power.

It's a whole different ballgame.

Suzanne: I think these are the, the kind
of relationships we're forced into with,

with humans, um, that we end up with.

We're forced into it by
our neighbors, right?

We're forced into it by the people that
we have to work with because that's

the, that's our fellow employees.

Given a choice, if we did not have
to worry about paying the bills,

and we could say, I, I don't
want to live next to this person.

I'm going to pick up my house,
and I'm going to put it here

in this little patch of forest.

Um, I, I don't want to live next to
you, like, so the, the wild animal

has a lot more freedom to say, hmm,
no, I'm not liking this, I'm going

to go find another place to live.

I'm going to go find
something else to eat.

I'm going to find different set of
conspifics to, to interact with.

But we lock ourselves as modern
men into a lot of conflict that we

just go through every single day.

And we, we have these civilized
manners that we lay over the top of

it, but we are not often at peace.

You know, there's, there's some of
the, um, African, uh, tribes that they

don't believe in democracy because
they believe either we all agree.

Or it's not agreed.

And I have often thought like,
wow, what if that was actually how

I had to work with animals, that
if there was a disagreement, we

had to find a point of agreement.

So that as much as possible,
I try to actually honor.

I have to find, not how do I fight more
effectively when I'm in an argument

with an animal, which is what a lot
of training is, but it's, can I back

this conversation down to a point
where we have a point of agreement?

Then I can build from there.

So a lot of what I do is, well, if
you can't do that, how about this?

And the animal says, no, I'm still, no.

It's like, okay, how about this?

How about this?

Can we at least agree on this?

And that, that is easier said than
done, and it does not mean that,

um, anyone who's working on the
relationship is going to get it right.

I mean, we practice a lot
with our human relationships.

I mean, that's not easy.

Anke: So I,

Suzanne: no, because it's two live
beings with their own perspectives

and goals and moods and how they feel
that day and, and you know, what their

history is and what interests them.

And you know, I, I don't know what a point
of agreement would be if I had someone who

was like really into fashion and we wanted
to discuss like how we got our nails done.

I'm like.

You just trim the jagged parts
off and you get the dirt out from

underneath them and our nails are done.

Well, there you've got your There
you go, that's a conversation.

How do I get the nail out?

You know, how do I trim
the ragged parts off?

And that's funny.

Anke: That's hilarious.

So, so where can people go and find out
more about your work and and contact

you and you know, find out more?

Suzanne: Well, just go
to SuzanneMcClothier.

com and we have got, man,
that's, that's kind of your,

there's a lot of stuff there.

And she's very

Anke: poetic, like just the names.

I love how you name stuff.

Like do check, do check her out.

Please do yourself a favor,
go to the, go to the website.

If you're listening to this on the
podcast and the show notes, if you're

seeing it on the newsletter, it's
kind of above or below the video.

So, yeah, do yourself a
favor, you, you'll love it.

She's got plenty of brilliant
stuff there, so thank you so much.

I could listen to you for ages.

So good, so good.

Thank you.

Suzanne: Great conversation.

Really enjoyed it.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.