Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Vivian.

I'm super excited to have you here.

Vivian: Thank you so much
for inviting me, Anka.

I'm really delighted.

I'm thrilled to be here.

I've been looking forward
to speaking with you.

Anke: Me too.

Me too.

So let people know, like
let's start straight in.

Where are you based and you know,
what's your business with dogs?

Vivian: Sure.

So I am presently located right
outside Bo Boston, Massachusetts,

in the United States.

It's about, um, I, I'm in, uh,
a town called Waltham about,

uh, seven miles, uh, west.

Uh, but I frequent all over
Boston, the whole area.

I drive about maybe 20 to 30
miles to meet with clients.

I work with clients in their
homes and, uh, I am a human

dog relationship Therapist.

Um, which is a thing.

Uh, so I come from the training world.

I, uh, studied and practiced,
learned about training, dog training,

years and years ago, I stumbled
into the dog training profession.

Because of my own dogs, I was
interested to learn more about them.

And there was also a need where I
was living, uh, for PET services.

And so I began a dog walking
business and I learned a lot.

Okay.

Yeah.

There were, you know, and then I
started to meet people who were

using certain equipment that I, I.

Maybe didn't understand
or didn't agree with.

Um, and I wanted to help educate
people on the world of the dog.

And as I, uh, I learned more about dogs.

I, uh, studied, uh.

Certainly became, uh, certified in, uh,
dog training here in the United States.

There's, uh, some, there's
a few credentialing bodies.

So I went, uh, through the path of
the Council of Certified Professional

Dog Trainers and, uh, became, uh,
certified Fear Free, uh, started

working with a veterinarian.

He and I became friends.

Um.

In the Boston area, and I
would shadow him and his staff.

And so we worked together.

I would work with him, and I learned
more about clinical medicine, small

animals, and a whole world opened
up and it was just so intriguing,

you know, to under, to, to learn
about a different animal Right.

That we'd live with.

And, uh, yeah.

And so that brought me into, um.

I was sort of this nerd.

I am a nerd when it comes to dogs.

I'm a sort of a closet nerd,
and, um, I was also a junkie and

I, you know, mark Beckoff, Dr.

Nicholas Dodman, um,
Sue Sternberg, um, Dr.

Susan Friedman.

There's so many.

Wonderful animal psychologists,
animal research, ethologists, um,

veterinarians, and, uh, by their
books and read everything that I

could go to the seminars and such.

And I, I, I met Dr.

Nicholas Dodman.

And, um, I asked him if I could work
with him or I could volunteer, and he

at the time was starting the Center for
Canine Behavior Studies and I was really

interested in a, having access to him
because I was working cases, you know,

with behavior modification training.

Um, and.

Also just the mission that they have is,
was, is similar to what I, I believe and

want to do, educate people about human
dog relationships and, um, and help

reduce the risk of bites to, to people.

And, you know, also surrenders, right?

To reduce the risk of surrenders.

Um, this is all big.

This is all a lot, right?

But if I could just work with
him, I would be so happy.

And in fact, he and Chris Elli,
uh, interviewed a number of people.

Um, I was hired, um, volunteering.

You don't really get paid.

Uh, but I got to work on
studies, uh, which was new to me.

So working on, uh, so the research
that we do at the center, they're

mostly, they're survey studies.

Um, and so we have a wonderful.

Statistician, uh, who
helps decipher the data.

Um, so I had one foot there and then I was
really interested in, again, furthering

my education and I tapped into, um, Dr.

Mark Beckoff is on our advisory
board, so I emailed him.

He he's lovely.

He emails me back.

He gave me some guidance
about, um, uh, different um.

Uh, wonderful.

Um, because I, I was
confused on what I should do.

Should I go neuroscience?

What should I do for a master's
of science degree, because

that's a big commitment, right?

And expensive.

But he, uh, he introduced
anthology, you know, the study

of human animal relations and.

And, uh, the different facets
of human animal relationships.

And that opened up a huge,
another world for me.

Learning about the, you know, which
you're probably familiar with, you

know, and, uh, just seeing the, our
animals, our dogs, our pets, our

cats, seeing a different perspective.

That blew my mind.

And, uh, so.

I just, it was a lot of work and I really
enjoyed it and it is still a lot of work.

And, um, for a little period of time
I was not taking as many clients

because it was just too overwhelming.

Um, and I was also
taking care of my mother.

My mother is 94 years old.

She's a big part of my life, so
that's why I'm talking about her.

And, um.

And so my husband and I have been
caretaking her and you know, we are

all managing a lot in our lives, right?

For sure.

Yeah.

Um, but I, I just, uh, but lately, um, I.

I, I wanna say in the past couple
of years I've taken on more clients.

I'm back to managing about five six.

I, uh, I offer, again, I'd say it's
a very long, um, three month, uh,

program where I evaluate, uh, and help.

People understand the function of their
animals or their pet dog's behaviors.

A lot of people are, are suffering.

You know, they may have, um,
acquired a dog not understanding

that they had a learned past, right?

They had a history or maybe,
um, the, the, the pet dog.

Uh, companion develops
something over time.

Uh, they might acquire the dog for a
rescue or a breeder, and, uh, they might

not understand that they're an individual.

Anke: Yeah.

You know, I, I actually must say I,
I really only understood that when

the second dog came into my life,
because obviously you start, I mean, I.

One little dog in the street.

Oh, I have a dog, right?

And so, you know, that's
how learning starts.

And I didn't really catch on.

To how different they actually are
until the second and the third dog.

You know, like I've never had, I've never
had more than three at a time, but you

see how they're totally different, you
know, and they're in the same household.

They're in the same, they grow
up with, with the same people.

So it's like, isn't that interesting?

And I never really gave that much
thought before I had the experience.

And I kind of totally get it
because, you know, I always wanted

a dog, but it wasn't even, I didn't
even go to a breed or rescue, like

Little Relay found me in the street.

They all did, except
the last one, you know?

And so it was like I was
prepared and I wasn't, you know?

Mm-hmm.

So I kind of wanted it,
but I also like, yeah, you.

In your experience working with people
who kind of find that, okay, this having

a dog thing isn't quite what I expected.

Right?

So what is, like, if, are there
certain things that, um, that

you wish people knew about

Vivian: with, uh.

With respect to the challenges with,
with respect to, to dogs, I wish that

they would, they understood that they
do talk to us, they communicate to us.

Um, and that's really, that
communication is the, you know,

unfortunately we talk, talk, talk, talk.

We were use words, right?

And we overlook the fact that our dogs.

Don't.

Right.

If, if people could understand that
our dogs do under do communicate.

They are providing information
through their signaling.

Right?

But.

They're also understanding how
we feel through, through smelling

us, through observing us.

Right?

And so they learn the same way as
we do through, um, positive and

negative associations, you know?

Um, so I wish people maybe invested
a little bit more time, just a

little bit in learning theory.

Doesn't have to be, you know,
just to help them too, right?

Yes, yes.

Yes, yes.

Our psychology is very similar.

Mm.

You know, our, our psychology is very
similar and, um, and I don't wanna

make this about promoting my book.

Well, why not?

Let's do it.

But that's, but I, that's, that's, I
write about, um, my book is entitled,

being Good Dog in the Human's World.

And I go over.

The, um, some of the issues
that we, um, we stumble upon,

uh, knowingly or unknowingly.

I talk about guardianship and
ownership, the differences.

What, is there a difference?

Why is it, why does it matter if
we think of ourselves as a, an

owner versus a guard, a guardian?

Because it, it does
affect how we behave as.

As, as, um, caretakers, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I know someone might think,
you know, you're getting, you know,

it's all terminology, but it does
affect us, um, in our behavior.

I talk about the, um, wealth
I try to give people, um, I.

Perspective from, from, um,
what it is like to be a dog.

We'll never really know
'cause we're humans, right?

But emotionally we are the same.

I talk about training, I talk about
our relationship, how we became

friends, the history of, of the
dog and human, where it goes wrong.

I just want, I don't, it's not
coming from a place of judgment.

It's more factual.

It's all evidence based.

And, um, it's up to people, you know,
to, to, you know, you know, if they're

interested in diving in a little bit
deeper, maybe reflecting upon themselves.

I talk about some cases I've worked on.

Not all of them were successful.

You unfortunately, we, um,
we sometimes, uh, you know.

We want things easy and, um, we
might make mistakes sometimes.

You know, we make mistakes that
can be hurtful and, uh, and I,

anyway, it's not a sad book.

It's just, it's a a, it's a factual book.

Took me a long time, uh, to write.

Um oh.

And then, um, I have, uh,
another one coming out.

Um, it's the, the next one's
gonna be fiction and it's about

a dog, um, that I write in the
first book, uh, chapter seven,

Anke: you know how to tease right
now we have to get the first book

to understand the second one, right?

Vivian: No, uh, the second
one is, um, it's on pet loss.

Oh, mm, because, um, there I go again.

I don't mean to get sad, but, uh,
the, uh, one of the dogs, uh, all of

the dogs, I fell in love with all of
the dogs, people I fell in love with.

They're all wonderful.

Uh, but, uh, this one dog, uh,
ended up, um, with cancer, uh, uh,

Cammy older dog, nine years old.

She lived, uh, it talk, the, the second
book talks about her journey, uh,

from a puppy mill to a loving home.

It talks about building
confidence, resilience, and.

Uh, it's a lovely book.

I found a beau, a beautiful illustrator
in Poland, um, from Poland, um,

who does all the illustration.

We collaborated and I, I, I educated
her a little bit about the world

of the dog and body language
and she was able to shape it.

Uh, so it's, I I love it.

I love it.

I hope others will too.

Anyway, so educating people
is really important to me.

Yeah.

Anke: No, that's, that's beautiful.

It's, um, I mean, see what, like, what
actually sparked me to even start this

whole podcast and everything was that I
saw so many times that people would use,

like, use looks kind of like, oh, we
get a, we get a dog for the kid, right?

And it's like, oh, you know, it's
just as if it was just a toy.

And then, and then, you know, it's
either the dog needs to serve.

I mean, that's, I don't know.

I always think where I come from in
Germany, it's not that extreme, but

in Spain it certainly is, right?

So the dog's either a toy for the kids
or it's like a, a like guardian or

it, or it's an emotional support dog.

Like there's almost like
it's a tool or it's a toy.

Right, right.

I never really felt that really that
it appreciated the wisdom they have

and how much they have to teach us.

You know, and I love, I love how you
come at this to sort of say, well

actually you help if you understand.

If you take a minute to try and look
at the world through the eyes of

a dog, you know you're never gonna
look at the world the same again.

Vivian: And you know what?

An it also helps us.

To understand other people, our animals,
our animal friends, understanding.

And that's something that was a
revelation for me as well when I began

to, you know, take a step back and, uh.

Understand what the dog was saying
and how they were feeling based

on what they were presenting.

It then transfers to our under,
looking at other people, right, and

saying, okay, wait a minute, maybe
that person's having a ha hard day.

This person that cuts me
off or yells at me or.

You know, what is the underlying,
it's, what is the underlying reason

why, you know, taking that step back
and saying why, why, what could it be?

Right?

And giving people more of a be benefit
of the doubt, just as we should

with our animal friends, right?

Mm-hmm.

And you know, it's interesting
that you talk about the toys,

uh, that, that people, and they
do, they commodify our animals.

And this is, this is something
I talk about as well, and.

Um, you know, I understand people have
to make a living and they get desperate

and, you know, they start breeding dogs in
the backyard and they're selling 'em and,

but, uh, or they gift a dog to a child.

And, um, and unfortunately
even with our toys, right?

Um, I'm kind of, I don't mean to.

Go, go, um, talk about many,
many things right here, but I'm,

I'm thinking about even our toys
that we give children, right?

That the little dog and they're squeezing
and they're holding and they're pulling.

And so this is the way we
introduce our animals to our

dogs, which is not, is not right.

When the per, when this young child
grows a little bit older, or maybe,

you know, maybe even as a young
child, then they're gifted a, a dog.

They're, they're treating
the dog like a toy.

They're mishandling the dog
and then dogs have teeth.

Anke: Right.

Exactly.

And

Vivian: then it's always

Anke: the fault of the dog.

Right,

Vivian: right.

But then also the parents.

And, and I understand this, they wanna
have, you know, in terms of, um, families,

you know, especially here in the United
States and in, we in Western cultures,

we're seeing more and more dogs are
part of the family and, um, accepted

into the family and I appreciate that.

But I think the pendulum is going
too much to the right, in my opinion.

Um, that.

You know, dogs are called
siblings and brothers.

And, um, and, and then the reason
why we, we just maybe, maybe wanna.

Take a step back is because when we think
of our animal friends as uh, a brother

or sister, a biological brother, and
we know as adults, they are not, but

a child doesn't, they're fantastical.

Right.

Um.

And we might also, uh,
drop our defenses, right?

And may not supervise.

And then the child might toss with the
dog and pull the dog or bite the dog,

and then the dog doesn't wanna bite.

But, you know, everyone has a limit.

So there's a lot that can go
wrong, um, uh, when we bring two

different species together, right?

Without, and there's a lot that goes

Anke: right.

Yeah.

You know, but I think without that
level of respect to, to, you know, I

think it is a beautiful opportunity
if you get a dog for a child.

It's a beautiful opportunity.

You know, I've had encounters that
were horrible where I'm thinking,

well, I'm doing this education here
that you parents over there were not

even looking, should have done, you
know, when little kids would come and

like just, oh my kind of pounce on.

Yeah, no, I wasn't friendly, you
know, but, uh, at the, the same time,

you know, there was a particular
incident, incident, I remember that

little boy was maybe five years old.

Like you could really
tell in that little face.

Nobody had told him that.

Like nobody had told him that he cannot
just kind of pounce on a dog, you know?

And so, but at the same time,
sometimes you meet little kids

that have such a way and so gentle
and so you can tell they grew up.

So it's a beautiful opportunity.

You know, to introduce them, right?

And to teach them from this
really young age of how to

respect another being, you know?

I agree.

And so I think there's a lot
of opportunity and there's a

lot of ways it can go home, you
know, when you sort of I agree.

Vivian: I agree.

We, um, at the center we have
an educational initiative, the

CCBS Center for Canine Behavior
Studies, and we are, um, producing

animated videos for children.

Yeah, we, we are now on our second,
the first one is Pause to Prevent.

Um, and the second one that we're working
on is, um, let Sleeping Dogs Lie, and

they're just little vignettes, uh, but
they're designed for young children.

Uh, and their parents to
understand body language and

understand the idea of respect.

And everyone has a personal bubble.

Uh, everyone meaning all animals, right?

Human, dog, cat.

Uh, and that

Anke: should go into schools, you know,
that should be mandatory in schools.

Yeah.

You know, it's

Vivian: free.

They're, it's, it's, it's a, it's
a free resource and we, um, we've

connected with like the A VMA.

Um, uh, a lot of pediatricians
are asking for it.

So we're, we are trying to get the
word out and, uh, and that, um, so

we have, uh, the free videos and
then also coloring books that are

associated with it's, you know, so
we're gonna be, we're producing that.

There's a series of 10 and then
the sec we're also working on, um.

Artificial reality applications again.

Um, we've got a, a, a really talented,
um, designer on, on, on our team that

is, um, working, um, again, be bite smart
and moving it into the digital tech.

That digital technology, which
will be for a little old, you know,

older, um, people or older children.

I love that.

Yeah.

So I

Anke: love that we're, we're all

Vivian: trying.

Anke: Yeah.

And I think it is about education.

I've always said like this whole,
you know, dogs needing rescue and all

this, like, nothing will fundamentally
change until a new generation

is taught something different.

You know?

So I think it's like, it's that children
need to be taught something different.

For that to change.

Right.

You know, so there's always the bandaid
and there's always people kind of

helping right there in the front lines.

But also the root of it is like
that attitude towards animals.

It's, oh, they just kind of like need
to serve me or they, you know, it's

like that needs to be replaced with
something, you know, much more respectful.

I agree.

Vivian: I agree.

I agree.

And I love that you're

Anke: kind of working in
that, in that direction.

So where can people go and find out more
about your books and about that, the

initiative and, you know, and about you?

Sure, sure.

Vivian: If they go to vivian zo.com,

they'll, there's information about my
books, there's information about the

Center for Canine Behavior Studies
or be Bite Smart and, uh, that'll,

that'll take them where they need to go.

Anke: We'll obviously pop that if
you're just listening, if you're

just driving and listening, it's in
the show notes and it's definitely

right below wherever you're watching
this or, or, or, or listening to it.

So thank you so much.

It's absolutely delightful.

You have such a calm presence.

It's real joy to hang out with
you, so I'm very much enjoyed it.

Thank you.

Vivian: Thank you dear.

Thanks so much for listening.

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And if you know a pawsome human
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Email me at Anke.

That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.