Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome,

Wendy: Wendy.

Anke: I'm very happy
to have you here today.

Wendy: Oh, I'm delighted
to be with you, Anke.

Anke: Thanks so much for inviting

Wendy: me.

Anke: Well, thanks for, thanks for coming.

And the reason I invited you was
because other people actually said

what a brilliant guest you were.

So when I saw that, I'm like,
oh, I want her on my show.

So here you are.

Thank you.

So let's start the way I always love to
start, is let people know where are you

based and what's your business with dogs?

Wendy: Sure, well, I am in the US, in
the state of Florida, in the lovely

area of Sarasota, where we don't, uh, we
don't get above two, uh, you know, below

the 40 degrees you were talking about.

We never really do that.

Um, but my, my business with dogs is not
so much business as personal experience

that led on a journey of discovery and
then research and then writing a book.

And it all started with a
little brown rescue puppy.

started out so promising, like
so many of these adventures do.

And then, um, you know, we cured her
of, of worms and all the anemia and

all the problems that come from, uh,
being born behind a, a gas station, uh,

without a mom, you know, uh, being raised
without a mom, she was in rescue and.

Next thing you know,
I was in over my head.

I was really struggling and,
um, I'm afraid I got very

impatient with this little puppy.

Um, I, I felt like we were,
you know, adversaries somehow.

I, I, I just, I thought she
was out to get me, honestly.

Uh, which, you know, isn't really fair.

But that, that was how it
seemed to me because we had

been getting along so great.

And then she started getting
healthier and bigger and energetic.

And next thing you know, I couldn't
leasher, I couldn't do anything.

It was just chaos and I was really, I
was really in a mess and a pickle and I

went to my husband and I started to give
him, you know, all the reasons that we

should bring her back to the shelter,
you know, like, Oh, she's still young.

She's still cute.

People are going to want her.

Somebody more qualified
can, you know, get her.

And, uh, because this is not
working out so great for me.

And I said that because I was the one
doing the primary care for the puppy.

I mean, he cuddled with her at night,
but I was doing all the, you know, The

other Raising the Puppy challenges and
he could not be persuaded, you know,

he snuggled with that puppy every night
and they had created a bond and he was,

he still believed in her and I had to
find a way to get over this problem.

That was really stressing me out.

I was also worried.

We had two cats and I was
certain that this dog was, you

know, grow up and kill the cats.

Like, I just had visions of chaos for
years and I was, I was a wrecking.

So really, uh, in desperation, I,
I had this crazy thought because

I've never raised a child myself.

But I had just helped write a book
for parents who are struggling.

I worked with some wonderful experts,
uh, who started a Institute of

Child Development at Texas Christian
University, Karen Purvis and

David Cross, wonderful professors.

And, um, I had this moment where I
thought, you know, This is a puppy,

but I'm a struggling parent, really.

I can kind of relate to these people who
we wrote the book for, and that made me

think, you know, maybe I should just go
back and flip through the manuscript and

see, maybe it has some wisdom for me,
because I, the puppy books, you know,

the guides, the manuals, They, you know,
they were okay if the puppy was calm,

they kind of taught you how to do the
thing, but they didn't tell you, like,

how to deal with this insane creature
that's, like, shooting around the house

like they came out of a cannon, you know?

It was just not, like, I
could not, I couldn't get it.

So I, I went back to the book
and I started to just see

things through a different lens.

I started to think about the
puppy's development and what it

missed by not growing up with its.

and mother in critical periods and
that we took her home really too young.

We didn't know this at the time,
but, um, there were all these factors

that when I started to really think
about it and understand and look

at it, I got a, I got a lot more
compassion and I changed my methods.

I, I just slowed down and I realized we're
going to have to go at her rate, not at

the rate that I was hoping to go because
I had only dealt with grown, calm, you

know, dogs before and she wasn't that.

So that started me on a journey.

And, and, you know, at first I didn't want
to tell anybody I was using a parenting

book, like, cause that seemed too crazy.

But then.

It just happened over my career
that I, I helped another, you know,

uh, group of experts write another
parenting book, and we got, we took

home a different dog, different rescue.

The more I looked closely at that
material, and the more I looked at

the research in the animal realm,
and in the human child development

realm, I just saw so much connection.

And, um, so that led to the book, you
know, that I ended up writing called

Tender Paws, um, how parent based, um,
science based parenting can help transform

our relationship with dogs, because
that's, that's what happened to me.

And then I just had such fun, I
started talking to experts, um, like

yourself, you know, dog professionals,
uh, and getting their own personal

stories that illustrated some of these
principles, um, and some of it was

really very touching and moving, um.

And I'm very grateful to all the
people who spoke with me for that.

I love that.

I

Anke: love that so much.

Okay.

And I kept laughing because
I'm like, yep, there's my crew.

And, uh, yeah, no, there's like
these two up the top, very like kind

of similar, you know, especially
the black one, like way too early.

You know, and in this way, like, no,
and that was actually what even started

the idea for Soul Touched by Dogs.

It was all the stuff that I read,
you know, exactly how you said it.

It was like, oh, all the
instructions, you know, work for

normal dogs kind of thing, right?

All these, yeah, you have to
have a level of calm for loose

leash walking to even be a thing.

Well, it certainly wasn't in my household.

It was just like, well, let's just
see if we don't get kind of dragged.

No, and none of the tips work.

That, that was for me, it
kind of got me onto that.

No, no, no, there's got
to be something else.

You know, those, those
instructions, those, those tips

are not all there is to it.

And I just totally
resonate with this idea.

Actually, I have a friend
of mine is a therapist.

You know, and she's written, she's
written a series of books and she

treats with, especially with, uh,
kids and, and, and, uh, adolescents

and, you know, even grown ups who
have, like, hypersensitivities, right?

And they're often misunderstood.

And wrongly judged and, you know,
where it's like, oh, there is

behavior, uh, rules are enforced that
somehow make things worse, right?

And when she talks about her mess,
like her, her method, we've often

laughed because she has a dog.

Like we always are like, you can
take Like, kids with hypersensitivity

and replace that with dogs and
will full on be relevant, right?

It like, it makes, it makes
so much sense, you know?

So what's the most surprising thing that
you, you know, that you all of a sudden

saw differently when you looked at it
through the lens of, of, of a parent?

Like, what was like the dog doing
where you thought, Oh, now I

understand what's actually going on.

Wendy: Well, there, there
were a number of things.

The turning point happened when
she was so mouthy and just pawing

and jumping and mouthing and, um,

I just stood back and I gave
her an opportunity to do it

differently at her own pace.

And when I offered her that opportunity,
she stepped forward and licked my hand.

Now, that doesn't sound like much,
but she had never done that before.

And that was quite different than
putting her teeth on me, which is

what she had been doing all the time.

So what did you do differently then?

Well, you know, I, I, um, first off, I
had to center myself, like, you know,

calm down, because I was And I was feeling
stressed and, you know, uncomfortable

that she was hurting me and, and so I
really had to just like, calm down and

say okay I'm going to like model, some
of this calmness that I want to see

from her going to stand back and what
I also did was I crouched down low.

And I just started speaking in a
very calm, you know, soothing tone.

I used the word do over.

I could have really said anything,
but, you know, I was, for me as well

as for her, like, let's do a do over.

So I, and I put my hand in a way,
but I didn't come up on top of

her and I didn't pounce on her.

I, I, I was a little bit to
the side, so she didn't feel

like I was attacking her or.

You know, she could get comfortable and
come at her own pace, and I stayed at a

distance for a little while, and she just
started to, you know, come forward, and

then she like sniffs my hand and then
licks it that once, and that, that one

lick, that, that was it, that was like,
oh, she wants to connect, she just doesn't

know how, um, and if I could appreciate
that and give her the time, Um, that

was, that was hugely helpful, especially
for, you know, a growing, young,

heading toward adolescence kind of dog.

Um, there's fear and, and
you talked about sensory.

I'm so glad you brought that up.

I got excited because in the Connected
Child book, for example, we talked about

Kids being online at school and somebody
just bumps into them and they freak out

and they like start punching and people
don't understand that that's like a

sensitive, you know, a sensory issue.

So not that they're,
you know, angry at it.

When you start to look at it differently
like through the body needs to

learn about the environment and.

It's not just a matter of getting
balance, it's, it's reading

the world through physical.

And that helps your brain get wired too.

And until all those things integrate.

Um, you know, a child is going to
suffer, and the same, the dog has,

you know, has to mature and get
through the, that's why puppies do

those incredible cute antics, right?

Because they're, they're experimenting,
they're throwing themselves around,

they don't have the fine motor
skills yet, they don't have the whole

brain body connection super strong.

And, um, so, Just starting to
appreciate, for example, with Hazel,

the little dog I was dealing with,
leashing her was a real issue.

And I realized that, you
know, if I took it from her

perspective, How would that feel?

First off, putting the
thing around the neck.

Second, that, that leash would hit her
back at unpredictable times, right?

Cause it's rubbed, you know, you
know how it drapes on a dog and a

grown dog begins to get used to it.

They sort of anticipate it, but a
little puppy who's under age and

starting to have all her neurons
firing, that could be scary.

That could actually feel uncomfortable.

That could trigger some of
those sensory reactions that

your friend was talking about.

Anke: Yeah, that makes,
that makes so much sense.

And I, I sometimes, do you think,
because it just reminds me of the,

uh, actually dog of a friend of mine
who was kind of same age as this one.

And she was also found as like a, like,
you know, next to nothing, you know,

full of, full of ticks and whatever.

And I don't know, maybe four weeks, like
way too young to be away from, from her

mother and, and little mates, right?

And that dog.

Always had trouble throughout her whole
life, like, relating to other dogs.

You know, I was looking after her for
a couple of days once, and I'm walking

around with her, and there was this
other dog coming along, like, oh, bouncy

and playful, and she was, like, scared.

She's hiding behind me.

You know, and I'm like,
you can't read that dog.

Like, you can't tell because the
other dog was bigger, you know, but

like, so goofy, so playful, right?

Like, there was nothing
aggressive or threatening in

that other dog's body language.

But I'm like, isn't that interesting?

She didn't read that.

You know, and then there'd be other
situations where there were, like, big

threatening, and then she walks up to
them, like, it's like, you don't know

how, you don't know how to speak dog,
because nobody taught you, taught you, I

think, you know, it's quite hard when you
get a puppy like that young, to almost,

you start below zero, because all the
stuff that normally the mother and the

littermates would sort of teach them in
that natural way, they don't have that.

Wendy: Right, and I've heard similar
stories, um, some people write about.

Uh, a dog that's a singleton, you
know, has no litter mates, has,

can have some of those issues too.

Whereas the mother may, you know,
instruct them a little, but they don't

have that real heavy duty experience
of learning that's so valuable.

Um, they don't learn how to be a dog.

Anke: Yeah, that's,
that's, that's so true.

And actually my last one, my big white
one, she was, she grew up in a like

a, in a Spanish farm and there were
horses and there were another dog with

other puppies, like her own siblings.

And there were like cats and
chickens and horses and the whole,

and she is the savviest thing ever.

You know, and then my
other dog taught her a lot.

Like, so she is the, you know, like,
well, that was the easiest puppy to

raise ever because she had all that.

And it makes such a big difference,
you know, when they know how to.

Read their environment.

So how long do you think?

So once you have that insight,
like, oh, actually I need

to come at this differently.

What were sort of, what were the phases?

Or was it kind of smooth sailing from
then onwards or was it, you know, like,

what were kind of the stages for her to.

Right.

Wendy: Um, well, I have to say
that I was learning too, right?

So, uh, that first aha moment
was very helpful and it got me

started in the right direction.

And, um, I started to use the
parenting idea sort of in the back

of my head, but I still looked at
dog, you know, uh, information.

And I would not say it was super smooth
sailing because she grew to be a lot

bigger than I ever expected, or we hoped.

We thought we'd get maybe
20, 30 pounds, right?

But we got 65 pounds.

And so there were elements of
that that did not go so smoothly.

And I had to keep learning.

And what I ended up, you know, in
hindsight, I could see more clearly.

some of the opportunities that I
missed, um, and I try to share some

of that in the book of to help people
maybe avoid some of the challenges

that, that I face because, um,

you know, when a dog gets bigger and
stronger, um, and, um, how do you

keep that relationship cooperative?

Um, and, and sometimes

And sometimes even they want to
cooperate, but nature kicks in, right?

Uh, I can't always compete with the
squirrel that just raced across in

front of her and ran up the tree.

Uh, and in her case,
that was super exciting.

Uh, and then I got carried away.

Uh, so,

and, you know, nearly dislocated
my shoulder because I was not

using the right equipment.

for that situation.

So there, um, you know, I, I
would hesitate to advise people

to follow me exactly in my
footsteps because it was a learning

Anke: process.

What, what, what, what are some, you know,
like, tips you would give them to avoid?

Pitfalls to the Fallen End.

Do you want to mention just one?

Wendy: Yeah, well, actually, what I ended
up doing is I ended up sort of looking

at the whole universe of interventions
that the parenting people used, and then

I mapped them to dog kind of things.

And it helped me come up
with a, like a big framework.

And I use the word hearts, H E A R T S,
as a simple way for me to remember them.

And it kind of represents
all the different things

that you want to think about.

H is for heal the body, for obvious
reasons, you got to get rid of the worms

or whatever the problems are, you know,
and they might be invisible to us too.

It could be allergies and food issues,
but anyway, that's the baseline.

So you start with H, heal the body.

E is for enrichment and
optimizing the brain.

You know, that sensory input and movement
are so important, uh, for well being.

Then you have A, for appropriate
environments with felt safety, because

that feeling of safety lets them rest
and digest and gives well being and

restores the body, uh, and the brain
and emotional baseline and everything.

Um, R is for respectful
and secure relationships.

And that's kind of basic, that's
sort of the golden rule, right?

You do unto others, you treat people
nicely, you want them to treat you with

respect, you treat them with respect, and
you can work that out with your dog too,

whatever that means in your household.

Tea is teaching sensitively and
positively, because we know positive

reinforcement handled sensitively,
you know, not cookie cutter positive

reinforcement, but handled sensitively and

tailored to your animal and their needs.

And then the last thing is the S is
Support the Individual because they might

be young, they might be old, they might
be sick, they might have this, or they

might have a breed in them that just
takes over sometimes and it's a very

natural need and we have to honor those.

It's like their superpower.

So.

That's, I mean, there's so much there,
that's why I use the hearts, because I'm

just trying to find a way to put it all
in, uh, keep it front of mind, so when we

look at a dog that we're struggling with,
we can ask ourselves, where in this You

know, a framework is their opportunity
to improve for them, for welfare, for

them, for us, to get the right mix.

Anke: Oh, I love that.

I love that.

And it does make, actually, I saw, like,
I saw this meme recently on Instagram.

We kind of see it quite a bit where, where
they say, well, The things that, the very

same qualities that dogs have been bred
for for centuries are now, you know, now

we take them into city apartments and
now that same behavior is, is problem

behavior, you know, like you're border
collie, like you're herding dog nipping

your ankles, your, your terrier digging up
the, you know, so it's like all the stuff

and it's like, oh, isn't that so true?

You know, and I love that you're saying
like, we have to honor what, you know, You

know, what's in their nature and make sure
you give them appropriate outlets for it.

Yeah, I love that.

Right, so

Wendy: much problem falls away if
we can anticipate that proactively.

Uh, just easier for For
people, easier for the dogs.

It's just a win win.

Anke: And even, like, even the whole
thing of looking at it through the lens

of the parent, right, because I sometimes
get this, like, you know, like, I don't

know, my parents will come and say, my
dad will go, like, wait, you know, well,

you need to look, sit, you know, like, oh,
well, dog shouldn't go there or whatever.

And I'm like, Why do you leave the
rubbish bin open on the floor then?

Right?

Would you do that to a toddler?

And that's always the thing.

You know, it's like, would you set
up a toddler for failure like that?

Like, no, you would like, no, I
shouldn't have to put the rubbish bin.

I want to put the rubbish bin
where I want and the dog just

needs to adjust kind of thing.

You know, and I'm thinking, well, If I was
to, like, would I do that to a toddler?

Like, would I say, well, you know,
there's a, there's, there's a,

there's a socket, electricity, right?

Well, the kid just needs to learn.

No, you know, like you, you protect it.

You make sure you set up
your child for success.

And I would think if you do take that
same attitude, like set your dog up for

success and don't put him in situations
where they, you know, likely to fail, I

think you're already a huge step ahead.

Wendy: That's a, that's
a brilliant example.

It's absolutely perfect because once you,
once you start to see them as a toddler

level of, you know, it helps you make
different choices and, and, and don't

resent them for being who they are.

And you can sort of appreciate it.

And that's a great, great way to frame it.

Anke: Yeah.

And it takes the guilt away as well.

Like, you know, when that whole parenting
approach, that whole like, oh, my dog

should be behaving and why, you know,
yeah, I just, just love this so much.

So where can people, you know,
get the book, get in touch with

you, tell them where to find you?

Wendy: Yeah.

Um, you're welcome to
find me at wendylsunshine.

com.

That's my website.

And the book is available from
Amazon and Barnes and Noble and,

Simon Schuster is the distributor.

It's, it's easily available.

That's Tender Paws, P A W S, and I liked
it because it has a double meaning too.

It's like paws, like, let's take a break.

Let's just slow down.

Anke: I love it.

It's so it sounds so gentle like that.

I just love the name.

Yeah, it's beautiful and it
really, I think it reflects what

what you're all about and what
What you're communicating there.

So yeah, thank you.

Thanks so much for coming.

This was absolutely delightful.

And uh, yes, get, get the book
because I know, I know what it's

like when everybody else's dog seems
to have it together, except yours.

I know what that feels like.

Isn't fun.

And, and I think looking at it through
that lens of taking that role of parent

makes all the difference in the world.

So yeah, definitely do yourself
a favor, check out the book

and get in touch with Wendy.

So much.

Thanks so much for listening.

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That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.