Soul Touched by Dogs

Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs
Podcast, the show for dog lovers who

see dogs not as toys or tools, but
wise souls worth our respect and care.

I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.

I talk to poor some humans, people who
do great work for dogs and their people.

So come and join us for
today's conversation.

Anke: Hello and welcome, Zazie.

I'm very excited to have you here today.

Zazie: Thank you for
having me on the show.

Anke: Well, I always start and
ask the same question, so you

are not going to be saved either.

So let people know where in
this lovely world you are and

what's your business with dogs.

Zazie: So I'm in Maple Ridge, BC Canada,
which it's near Vancouver, basically.

It's a very beautiful part of the world.

Lots of lovely forests.

Um, I've, as you can tell from my
accent, this is not where I'm from.

I grew up in Leeds in England, so
things are very different here.

But I love it here.

And I am an award-winning writer and
I write about both dogs and cats.

My books a Bark Wag Amper, that's.

Anke: It's like, I'm just wondering like,
okay, if you continue with other animals,

that's gonna be sounding bit funny.

Zazie: This is always what
people are asking me, which,

which, which word is animal word?

Is it going to be next?

But we have to wait and see.

I I can't spill any beans
on anything at the moment.

It's interesting.

I.

It's interesting to me though, to
see which ones people come up with

and I'm listening very carefully and
thinking, well, should I write that one?

Because a lot of people have
mentioned it, so we'll see.

Anke: Well, well, well, so you
know, obviously, so you, you, so

you're not just about dogs then.

No cats as

Zazie: well.

Anke: Cats as well.

Like, I'm, I'm, I like cats
too, so it's not, not a problem.

But we're on a dog show, so
I'm gonna just kind of, uh,

lead on the, uh, with the dog.

So,

I mean, I would imagine you had a
dog at some point, and at some point

you thought like, I wanna turn this
into a business, or, or do you just

go, well, oh, actually let me write
a, like how does one come up with the

idea of writing that kind of book?

Zazie: Yeah, so my background is probably
not typical at all for people in the

industry, except insofar as there was a
dog with behavior issues who changed my

life, and that part is very, very common.

I think there are many, many
people in that situation, but I

was a human psychologist first.

My PhD is in psychology.

Um, I did that at the University of
Nottingham and I worked for quite a

while as an academic psychologist.

And then I moved to Canada
with my husband, um, 17

years ago now, I think it is.

And I had always wanted
to be a writer, so.

When I got to Canada, I was very lucky.

I was accepted onto an MFA
creative writing at UBC, and I

did that and that was wonderful.

That was so exciting because
it was something I'd wanted

to do for years and years.

And then after that I started a blog and
the dogs were the reason why I started

the blog, really because we had these
two dogs, ghost and budget, we got them.

Very close together.

We got Ghost first from, uh, one
of the local animal shelters.

And he was an amazing dog.

He was like, he was huge.

He was a cross between a Siberian
Husky and an Alaskan Malamute.

And he was very lovely, uh, very sweet,
but he really liked other dogs and

we thought he really needs a friend.

So we went to get him a friend.

Um.

And really all we cared about
was that he liked the dog.

We weren't so bothered for ourselves.

We, I guess we naively thought we could
handle anything so long as the dogs got

on with each other, you know, you go into
these things with the best of intentions.

So we adopted Badger who was
an Australian Shepherd and.

He was absolutely lovely.

He was an amazingly good friend
and he also had a lot of issues,

so he was very reactive on leash.

He would, when we first adopted him,
he was about two years old and he

would spin and spin in circles, um,
sometimes with his tail in his mouth.

So he came from a background where
he hadn't been properly socialized

or properly looked after, and he, he
was afraid of all kinds of things, so

we had to do a lot of work with him.

My mom happened to give me a book, which
maybe you know about by John Bradshaw

called, um, in the u in the UK and Europe.

It's in Defense of Dogs and
in America it's dog sense and

it's all about canine science.

And even though my, like, my
background was psychology, but.

Psychologists at that time were not at
all interested in domesticated animals.

Rats and mice.

Yes.

Primates.

Yes.

Humans.

Yes.

But dogs and cats.

No.

And I was like, wow.

I did not know that
canine science existed.

And I just thought it was amazing.

And so I started my blog Companion
Animal Psychology, writing about

canine science and feline science
because I'm a cat person as well.

And.

I just thought it's amazing that there
is this science that we can use that can

help to make our lives better, our life
with our dogs better, because so much of

it is very, very practical and it gives
us a better understanding of our dogs.

So I started companion animal
psychology in 2012, and in a way

the rest is history because that.

Got me started on this long journey
towards writing books, and I can

tell you how the books came about
as well, if you'd like to know,

but that's, I'd love to hear.

Anke: Yeah, no, I'm, I'm, you know,
like, I've got my, my first one

published, not about Dogs Motech and
the second one in the works, but, so

I'm always curious, congratulations.

Like how, how another author kind
of goes about things and comes

around to the, to the, to the,
the core message and the topic.

Zazie: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well congratulations on
your books and Thank you.

So I just was writing my
blog and I wasn't really.

Thinking too much about how to
get a book, but I did have this

idea that I was starting to think
about, and I was occasionally

writing blog posts on that topic.

And then there came a point when I
thought, I'm not putting any more of

this onto my blog, because I don't
want someone else to think this is

a good idea and go off and write.

The same kind of book would
make it harder for me.

And then I was really lucky
because this was in the days when

Twitter was quite a big thing.

We had lots of people there and some,
someone who was a literary agent

contacted me on Twitter and said, have
you ever thought of writing a book?

And I was like, yes,
actually indeed, I have.

Yes.

Um, so we had a meeting.

She turned out to be local to me.

Um, and we had a meeting and talked
about ideas and ultimately that

is the book that became wag the
Science of Making Your Dog Happy.

So that's all about how to have a happy
dog and it takes you dog through every

stage of their life right through from
getting a puppy or adopting an adult

dog to when you have a senior dog and
even the end of life, because that's.

Very hard part, but it's
important to write about it.

And I think it's helpful for
people to know some of those things

before they get to that stage.

And so it takes you all through that.

And it, it has at the end, end
of every chapter a set of tips

to apply to science at home.

And at the end of the book,
there's a checklist for a happy

dog that people can go through and
see are they doing these things?

Or which of these ideas would they like
to start doing with their dog to see

if it makes a difference to their dog?

And I firmly believe that.

When you know what your dog needs and you
provide what your dog needs, then they are

going to be happier basically, and they're
going to be less likely to have behavior

issues and they're going to be more likely
to have a good relationship with you.

And that's why we get dogs because we
want a good relationship with them.

So that's why I wrote that book.

Anke: I love that.

I love that.

So out of all the things that
are in the book, um, if you were

to pull out like one thing that.

You know, makes your dog happy
that, you know, like maybe pick the

most underestimated one or the one
that most people wouldn't think of.

You know what, what comes to mind?

Zazie: I.

Well, I think, can I pick two?

Oh, please.

I wanna pick two.

I just didn't wanna kind like

Anke: kind of discourage people
from getting the book, but

if you can pick two, go for

Zazie: it.

I'm gonna pick two because I think there
is one idea that has really caught on

and not just because of me talking about
it, because lots of people who've been

talking about it, and that's the idea of
giving your dog the opportunity to sniff.

And I write in the book about how.

From an animal welfare perspective,
it's really important that your

dog gets, uh, opportunities to
use their most important scents.

And for them, of course, that smell and.

I especially like the idea
of taking your dog on a nari.

Basically just giving them the chance
to sniff as much as they like, and you

give them the freedom to follow their
nose so long as it's safe to do so.

And I think that idea and the idea
of playing Saint Games with your

dog or doing those work with your
dog, we've seen a lot of people.

Take up on this idea and a lot more people
are doing it now and you can even get like

snuffle mats from the pet store and so on,
which you didn't used to be able to do.

And I think that's wonderful.

So I still think that is probably the
most important thing for most dogs.

It's something that is.

Not present in their lives
as much as they would like.

So it, it's, it's very
easy for people to do.

It doesn't have to cost anything, and
you don't even have to go anywhere.

You can just go outside your door
and let your dog sniff there.

You can do online nose work
classes if you want to.

So I think that's important.

The other one though that I do
want to mention is that everyone

should give their dog a safe space.

The dog should have somewhere where
they can go, where they are not going

to be disturbed, and they can just
relax and chill out if they want to.

And you are never going to go and get
the dog from that space because then

it wouldn't count as their space.

So if you want the dog from there,
you have to call them to you and

teach them to come when called.

Not actually go and get them.

So especially in a busy household, it
gives the dog somewhere quiet to go.

And that's mentioned in Wag, but it,
it is mentioned again, of course, in

my most recent book, bark the Science
of Helping Your Anxious, fearful, or

Reactive Dog because it's good for all
dogs, but it's especially important

for those fearful and anxious dogs.

Mm.

Anke: That makes so much sense, and I'm
really happy to hear that the idea of

letting the dog sniff, that it's sort
of really almost catching on, you know?

Because I remember when I had my first
dog, Leo, like this one there, and I don't

know, like that's how I understood it.

Like just without knowing anything.

That's what I do.

You know?

I would just kind of like, he wants
to sniff, all right, it's your walk.

You know, like the amount of crap I took.

From neighbors and it's like, oh no,
like the dog needs to follow you.

How can you be run?

You gonna, you know, and you
encourage him to pull and you do this.

And this is like all these million
reasons why that was like the

worst thing to do, you know?

And so, so, and now with my
two big girls, it's like, yeah,

I'm just your bodyguard really.

You know?

That's how I see it.

And we go and as, and
it's funny how the more.

Space they get and the more time they
get to literally not just like let

them sniff a little bit, but literally
until they go like, okay, I'm done now.

And it's so funny to, when they
come home, they're wiped out.

Like it's so funny.

They're so wonderfully tired.

You know, even if you don't go any
further than you normally would, it just

really, yeah, it really tires them out.

Zazie: And I think that's something a lot
of people don't realize until they start

giving those opportunities to their dog.

And yeah, as you say, it, it used to
be the case and certainly some people

still will say, who's walking the dog?

Or things like that, which is so annoying.

But it's, it's the dog's walk,
that's the point of the walk.

Yeah.

So you wanna make sure that your
dog is enjoying it, and that means

letting them sniff the female or
whatever, you know, they, they.

They get a lot, they're reading like what
has been happening in the environment.

And it might be a bit boring for us
sometimes, but actually for me, I, I'm

quite happy just to stand there and
watch them having a nice time sniff.

And I'm quite happy just paying
attention to what's going on around

me and looking for the birds and
the flowers and things like that.

And I think that is good for me too.

So,

Anke: yeah, I think so.

I think so.

It's actually really quite
funny because that presence, I

think it's really helpful like.

Yeah, I mean for, for us to come down
a little bit, but also that being

present in the moment with the dogs.

You know, I have a friend locally
and she will always like, oh, um,

she, I think she's given up, but
she's so often she'd go, Hey, why

don't we walk the dogs together?

And I'm like, I don't want to, you know,
I love that time, just the dogs and me.

You know, there's no phone, there's nobody
to talk to, there's no messages to check.

There's literally, it's just the dogs
and me and I totally love that to be that

like fully present and not just like, oh
yeah, you know, I'm doing my thing here

and the dog's carrying on over there.

It's, um, yeah, so it's, it's beautiful.

Zazie: I think it's a really special time
and for me, like if I'm writing and I

get stuck now, I don't often get stuck on
things, but every, every writer gets stuck

at some point and you're like, I dunno
what to say or, I dunno how to say this.

I just take the dog these days.

I have a senior dog.

Um.

Pepper.

He's a shihtzu.

He does not walk very far.

He does a lot of sniffing and he's
very slow because he's a senior.

But I just take him and go outside
and just 10 minutes outside

watching him sniff it helps it like
it refreshes me as well as him.

Yes.

So then I can come back to my
computer and sit down and I haven't

necessarily solved the problem, but
I'm in a better space anyway to, to.

Resume working and resume writing.

So that, that really helps whenever I get
stuck, like the, that time with the dog

is, is really special time just to relax
and not think about anything and just be

with him and in the moment completely.

Yeah.

Anke: Yeah.

I love that.

That makes so much sense.

Yeah.

It's because like walking,
you cannot get stuck.

You, you've gotta walk away and you know,
nobody betters to take along than a dog.

Yes.

So do people like come and work
with you as well or is like your

books, like your books is your main.

Zazie: So I have worked with clients.

I am currently taking a break
because there are only so many

hours in the day, and right now
my books are the main channel.

Um, so, and my blog
and my podcast as well.

So, um, my books Bark Wagon Perth,
so Bark came out in September.

It's coming out in paperback
in June of this year.

So very soon.

Um, and.

I wrote that because I wanted to give hope
to people with fearful and anxious dogs.

And it can be so hard having a dog with
behavior issues and a dog who's afraid.

And people really put a lot of effort.

They have to put a lot of effort
into solving these situations.

And I wrote back to give them hope
and to say that, yes, we know it's

hard because I think it helps people
to know that they're not alone.

And also to give lots of
practical tips for what to do

with a fearful and anxious dog.

Especially because some of it
is quite technical, um, and.

I wanted to be able to explain that
in ways that mean that people can

actually apply it and can do it.

Because so often people say,
well, I've tried this and it's

not working, and there are so many
things that you have to get right.

And then not many places that
explain that very clearly.

And of course with my background in
psychology, some of this is kind of

bread and butter for psychologists
anyway, so, um, it that helps.

And like my other books, I've looked into
all of the science and incorporated that

in it, and lots of stories of my own dogs
and of other people and the dogs that.

That they have as well.

So it's full of practical tips
that I hope will help people.

And, um, I will be taking
new clients again very soon,

but only clients in Canada.

And I only do consults over Zoom these
days because it's a much better use

of my time not to have to travel.

Um, yeah.

And look, think, I think
I know a lot of people who

Anke: do that now, and I think,
I mean, and I've heard people

say that it's actually, uh.

Yes, it's more, it's better for your
time, but it's actually, I think,

also better for the dog because like
you are not walking into that space.

And because I get that happens
a lot, I think, you know, like

somebody new walks in and like, you
kind of mess up the entire dynamic.

So of course the dog's gonna be
different, you know, but then what they

really need is that in their normal
environment things are different.

So I think it's actually even, you
know, better for the dog as well.

Zazie: Yeah.

Yeah.

And um, yeah, absolutely.

And for cats too.

I mean, it's exactly the same for cats,
especially if you've got a fearful

cat and you go into their space, well,
they're gonna run and hide and you can

see the setup, but you can see the setup
just as well from talking to people from

what you see on Zoom, from what they
tell you about, about their home and

their, their daily routines with their,
so I think it works, works really well.

And then as well as the books, I have
obviously my blog, I still write my blog.

So people can sign up to
my newsletter if they want.

Um, actually there's a
choice at the moment.

You can sign up on my website
or if you're on into Substack,

you can sign up on Substack.

Instead, you get exactly the same.

It makes no difference.

Um, and I, I like to write about, I.

Things that will help people
understand their dog better or

cat and also about the science.

So I'm still keeping an eye on the
canine science 'cause I find that

absolutely fascinating and I'm still
always looking out for new articles that

I think will be interesting for people.

And especially I have a focus on
dog training methods because, uh.

Along with other people.

I, I know from the science how important
it is to use reward-based methods with

your dog and not to use aversives.

And so that's one of the things
that I especially keep an eye

out on for the literature.

But I also just love writing about
anything to do with the human animal bond

or things to do with enrichment as well.

Um, yeah, and there's so much interesting
stuff, so it's, there's so much.

Anke: Yeah.

Zazie: Yeah.

Anke: Actually, I'm curious
because I like, it's really funny

'cause I have a, I have a client.

She is, um, she's a therapist, right?

And so she often talks about
like her method to, you know,

for working with mostly sort of
people with hypersensitivities.

There's a lot of autism, a lot of,
you know, and it's really funny

because, so she also has a dog, right?

And so we so often say like, you
explain your method, like the entire

thing and like the books you've
got and, and you literally replace.

Hypersensitive like Child with dog
and you've got a dog book, right?

Like it's literally like
from human psychology.

Like what was sort of the, is there
something, you know, where you think, God,

I never knew the parallels were so strong.

Or maybe there's an area where it's
like, oh yeah, dog and people like

are really different here, but.

Surprisingly similar over there.

So is there something that stood
out to you when you sort of, you

started from the human psychology
and then moved over into the animals?

Zazie: Yeah, that's a really
interesting question and I think

it's something where what we know
has changed so much over the years.

So if you go back, way back a long
way to when I was an undergrad

and a, and a graduate student, um.

Everybody, of course, learns,
behaviorism, behaviorist principles,

how to do opera conditioning, what
classical conditioning is, that's like

every psychologist has to learn that.

And then of course, there's loads of
other things that you learn about as well.

But to think those are still basically
what dog trainers do all of the time.

So we know.

We know that's relevant,
but what's really.

Changed.

I guess a couple of things.

One of them is that we used to think
animals were not very clever, and I think

every dog person has always believed that
their dog actually is very clever and

they have given them a lot of credit,
but science needs proof for things and.

For a very long time was very firmly
of this belief that humans are special.

Um, and that lots of things didn't
apply and that's completely changed.

So I think that gives us more of a
recognition of just what animals know.

Now we recognize that dogs and other
non-human animals are sentient beings.

And I think that changes a lot.

And I think that is partly what has led
to the interest in canan science, and also

it changes how we think about our pets.

Because it means that we do
actually have to do more for them.

And it's changed how we think about
animal welfare because we no longer

think just about preventing cruelty
and the five freedoms that everybody

knows of the five freedoms, they've
done an amazing job for decades

ever since they were first created.

But these days we know that it's
not just preventing cruelty.

We have a more.

Modern model called the five
domains, which looks also

providing positive experiences.

And I think that's really important and
that's also something that a lot of dog

guardians can get behind because we like
to see our dogs happy, so we want to be

providing those positive experiences.

But then.

One of the things I found really
interesting when I was researching Bark

because as well as my own experience
and my own experience as a dog trainer,

um, I also read all of the science and
I went back through some of the more

recent science to make sure that I was
up to date because of course, research

on classical conditioning has changed
since decades ago when I was a student.

Um.

And that was really interesting to me.

And it's really interesting to me
that a lot of this research is either

on rats and mice or it's on humans.

And that's what we are drawing
on to see how it applies to dogs.

And there is a little bit on dogs,
but there's not very much on dogs.

But because there's a lot that's
similar about the, the mammalian

brain across different mammals, a lot
of that is just very, very relevant.

And I find that really interesting.

And of course it's slightly different.

Some of the studies with people, maybe
they're using chocolate or money and

now as rewards or when something scary
happens or slightly unpleasant happens

to kind of try and reduce that threat.

Um, of course with dogs we are using
cheese or roast beef or something like

that, but you know, a lot of it is very
much the same, very similar, very similar.

Protocols and yeah, so I
think that's, that's great.

And I love psychology
as a discipline anyway.

I think everybody should learn some
psychology at some point in their

lives because it's so helpful and
it's so interesting and it just

helps you to understand people better
and relationships better and so on.

So I've always been a fan of the
subject, and I think I'm lucky that I

had this academic background and now I
come to be able to use what I learned

before in this very applied setting.

I love

Anke: that.

It's, it's just, so, it's sort
of, it's interesting how it sort

of comes full circle, right?

So how, how that, that passion
sort of carries across and the

similarities are just striking.

I think when I'm looking at, at the
four dogs that have been in my life,

it's, I think the biggest surprise
was literally what you just said.

Like, we used to, I mean, you
know, growing up I've always

loved dogs and I never knew how I.

How clever they are, like I think, I think
they're so still so un underestimated.

You know?

It's like when they.

I mean, even just the senses,
like you kind of like, you kind

of know it in theory, right?

But when you have like a dog nervously
panting forwards and backwards and

you don't know what the heck, you
know, and then tomorrow you read on

the news, oh yeah, there was like a
tiny little earthquake 500 miles away.

I.

Even people locally didn't notice, and
mine was like, and I'm like, oh my God.

You know, how dare I to kind of
say you bark at nothing, you know?

Yeah.

It's like me.

It's me who is the, who is
the ignorant one, right?

So I think that, that, um, yeah, I
think I definitely though, like I will

never look down on the dog, right.

I mean, not that that ever kind of looked
down on them, but sort of, it's almost

like a whole new appreciation of, and how
they read us, you know, it's, it's just.

Remarkable.

What's the, what's the main difference
for you between, um, like everything

we've talked about in relation to dogs?

Am I totally off track to assume that
a lot of that applies to cats as well?

Zazie: A lot of it does
apply to cats as well.

I think one of the differences is
there isn't as much research on

cats, and I wish there was, but yes.

So of course thinking about
positive experiences for cats,

cats actually have amazing noses
and most people don't realize.

So you can use scent as
enrichment for your cat.

You can do nose work with
your cat if you want.

You can hide treats for them
to use their nose to find, um.

You can, if you have an indoors only
cat, a really good thing to do is to

make something called a sensory box
and get things from outside that are

safe for the cat to interact with and
put them in a box and just bring it

into your home and give your cat the
choice of interacting with those things.

And that would include.

Probably thinks that they
would want to sniff as well.

And then of course
everybody knows about cat.

No, not mice.

The cat might like that,
but we wouldn't like that.

Um, and then everybody knows about
catnip for cats, but there are also some

other substances that these days we know
that cats have a similar response to.

And it seems to be genetic.

So if you, even if your cat
doesn't respond to catnip,

'cause that is genetic only.

Some cats respond to it.

Most do, but not all.

Then these other substances, your cat
still might respond to some of those.

So that would be silver vine and Sattari,
honeysuckle and Erum, for example.

Some of which are easier to
find in cat toys than others.

So that's one thing I think a
doing a lot more enrichment for

your cat is a really good idea.

Um, and so a lot is similar.

And of course we have to recognize.

What e every kind of mammal needs,
like to feel safe, for example,

but also we have to recognize the
individual needs of the species.

And one of the things there for cats
is that cats don't like to share.

Um, they're used to having
to catch their own food.

Like if they catch a mouse, it's not big
enough to share with their fellow cats.

So if people have multiple cats,
it's really important to make

sure that food is separated.

Also, all of their resources are separated
so that there's no competition between

cats so that they can get access to all
of their resources without having to

fight the other cat or the other cat being
able to block them or anything like that.

So that's one of the important
things to think about with cats.

But you can think again though,
even in a Multid dog home, you know

that you want, you don't want your
dogs to be fighting over resources.

So it's kind of similar, but it's
even more important for cats because

cats are used to kind of being,
they can be solitary, they can

manage completely on their own.

Excuse me.

Anke: I didn't, I had no idea.

Yeah, I never even thought of that.

That's, that's fascinating.

So I'm not gonna ask you
about your next book because.

I'm gonna have, you're back for that one.

Uh, so for now, where can people
go and, um, find out more,

more about you, get in touch.

I mean, obviously she's on
Substack, that's where I found her.

And, uh, you know, where can they
go find the books and, and find out?

Yeah.

And get in touch with you.

Zazie: Yeah, so if you're on
Substack, you can find me.

I'm Azzy Todd on Substack,
and my newsletter is called

Companion Animal Psychology.

For anything else, you can find me
on companion animal psychology.com,

and that's also where you can subscribe
to my newsletter and you can find

details of my podcast, the positive post
in conversation, which I run with my

co-host, Christie Benson, and messages
about new episodes go out there, and

that's also where you'll find links to my.

YouTube as well.

So that's the best place to go and
the books are available wherever

books are sold, and bark will be
out in paperback on June 10th.

Anke: Awesome.

Well, we shall definitely post a note
about that to make sure people can get it.

Well, thank you so much.

I love how you combined, you know, your
original career with the new passion

and how it all comes together to form
this really helpful in informative space

for, for us dog lovers and cat lovers.

Zazie: And thank you.

It's been really fun chatting with you.

Anke: Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening.

If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget
to subscribe, and leave a review so

other dog lovers can find the show.

If you haven't already, head
over to soul touched by dogs.

com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness
tips, recommendations, and personal

stories to warm your dog loving heart.

And if you know a pawsome human
you think I should interview,

I'd love an introduction.

Email me at Anke.

That's A N k E at Soul
touched by dogs.com.